Dig your new user icon, @StormChaser ! :-) The optimist in me truly does hope you are right - you and so many others put a TON of time and love into the BL catalog.
I think in the absence of any other information, I have to assume TLG made the investment (which I can only guess wasn't cosmically THAT much $$, maybe low millions?) to:
1. Get the data - data makes the world go 'round these days and is worth more than gold 2. Kill Brickarms (they've already said that in essence in a recent interview)
Everything else is just speculation. I do wish BL and TLG well in their pursuits over there. I continue to strongly feel that competition on REASONABLY level footing is healthy and that BO will do nothing but continue to grow. Now if something disastrous happens like they start price-setting over there and undercutting sellers, etc. (I truly don't see that happening - this is kind of financial peanuts compared to their bread and butter earnings), then we won't be able to compete over here either.
I just don't see that though. I think in the end we'll be fine over there (and hopefully keep showing up in the top three-four hits in Google LEGO searches) and continue to see growth, and BL will continue to see growth on their side from LEGO help desk staff directly steering people over there from when Pick a Brick is missing an item (until they decide how they're going to - if they're going to - merge all that stuff). LEGO used to steer people to BL anyway from what I hear, so I don't see any change really there.
My only real concern is for people who use BrickSync and sell on both platforms. I do worry that one day TLG would wonder why the heck they have that open API and force sellers to choose - and if they all choose BL, that will hurt BO. Buyers go where the sellers are.
Repeat after me: Buyers go where the sellers are!!
Translation: Give selling on BO a shot! Heck, use BrickSync and sell on both if that is what makes you comfortable. :-) But I think you'll find a lot of happiness over here if you haven't given BO a shot yet! :-) (end shameless plug for BO)
One_Click_Off: Yes, I'm aware of the shortcomings of TLG in regards to keeping track of what they've produced over the years and in regards to storing/sharing parts information. In the absence of any official effort, fan-built cataloging sites have filled the void. Since the depth of the BL catalog is exceptional, I really believe that TLG will leave it alone and let fans continue to do what they've been doing there for nearly 20 years. Even if everything else goes horribly wrong, I believe that TLG, more than anyone, realizes the value of that data and will therefore preserve it (almost certainly publicly). That's why I'm happy. The BL catalog should finally be safe for the first time since the site was founded.
leopard37: I'd be lying if I said I hadn't missed being part of the online LEGO fan community during the past 11 months, including missing you and some of the other members I became acquainted with during my 15+ years on BL. We'll see how TLG handles things, I guess. Ideally, they will have a long-term plan for preserving the data we've all compiled and will share it publicly. I may be hoping for too much there, though . . .
I wish I was so positive about the Bricklink acquisition like you guys. unfortunately Im not. all over this years I have seen TLG inviting little resellers to open physical stores when they need them and shoot them down when they didn't need them anymore. I also have seen TLG open their arms to platforms like Amazon and other online seller monsters meanwhile break with them when they were selling more than Lego.com. I saw Lego asking help and support to the AFOL community on 2002 / 2004 and apologizing for the errors that were almost killing TLG at that time, and after they survive they returning committing the same errors and despising the Afol community.
I will write here the same that I had written on Bricklink a few months ago. And please dont get me wrong. I LOVE LEGO as the most beautiful toy ever made IMO. When Bricklink launch the Afol design program with the Lego support at that time I said: "There was so much to say about this, but I will probably just sit down and wait". Now Bricklink was acquired by TLG. This means so much... really so much....
Lego tried to get the parts business with "pick a brick", after that failed, they had come with a most serious strategy and launch "Bricks and pieces". All of this failed. Even their LDD digital designer software was bad and failed and was abandoned letting the Afol community with no more support on LDD. So what they did? They did what every big company do when parallel markets are stealing business from them, They buy or they kill! They tried to kill indirectly without success, because Briclink was a community supported by independent sellers and contributors. So they buy it, after all it was not so expensive for them... They had buy the web platform, not the stores on that platform, anyway they now have control of everything. They even get a full tool like Studio who in few months turns to be a better experience than LDD was during years.I will pass the China market, competition, Europe regulation about outside markets getting in etc, brickarms is nothing compared to Lepin, Decol, Xingbao just to mention a few. All non European markets like China, Brasil and EUA are full of this brands since TLG open factories in China. And I say again: There would be so much to say about this... because if Lepin, Decol and Xingbao and 10 more China parts factories dont enter directly on Europe is because someone was paying really good money for them to be quiet.
Now you can probably ask. Why is this guy so concerned? As about me, Im not. Im just a little AFOL, with a little store with a few parts and sets. I just sell Lego to buy more Lego. Lego is not a business for me anymore. Lego is my beautiful toy, my hobby that relax me and help my brain move forward. But I have seen what happened to BL as an exactly copy +paste for software companies, car brands, pharma etc, and if someone believe that TLG had buy Bricklink just to help the AFOL community I´ll be better completely wrong on my thoughts. At the time Microsoft corporation had buy Hotmail.com they also said it was for helping all the mail community users and so on and so on, just to mention one example... Being a very little store and Lego seller I adopted some rules since the past 27th day. I download my inventory everyday to my PC, I do the same with all the orders I receive and also with all Bricklink catalog for parts and sets! Its all on my PC! Its there on bricklink, its legal and everyone can do it at least for now. Bricksync is a brilliant tool, but off course not compatible with the TLG interests, so, big sellers should take some precautions in my modest opinion because TLG will kill it as soon as possible.
Why such a big post and why my concern? It hurt me to see TLG buying easily near 20 years of a hard work community with contributors all over the world. And Im not talking about me once again. I got more from bricklink that I gave to it. Some of you worked hard on Bricklink catalog and proposing changes to improve and making that site grow up. And now someone give a few millions and take control of everything. Its sad Im not happy with that. I wish I was rich enough, so I could had buy it first and offer it to all of you that create an elephant from a ant!
@mardosul looks like you're of the "they bought it to kill it" school But did you think about what is in it for TLG to kill the AFOL market? If you look at what they've been releasing the last 10 years or so, it seems evident that they've actually been trying to target the AFOL market more and more. And that makes sense, because it is a growing market. Clearly, they do want to sell to AFOLs - even though they sometimes struggle with avoiding that AFOL business frustrates their core business. It is not that they don't want an AFOL market, but they just want to make sure it doesn't compromise the core business model. The AFOL market isn't the first priority, but it doesn't mean its existence is not desired - in fact its existence could be pretty important.
Buying Bricklink to kill it is 1. not very useful as AFOLs can't exist without a marketplace so the whole effort of targeting the AFOL market will have been a waste, and 2. not efficient because people can sell elsewhere. It would be more efficient to start legal wars if they're trying to kill part selling at large.
While I normally completely disregard what companies say, for now to me it really looks like what they want is in fact what they say they want: A robust platform so the AFOL hobby can live.
@Teup we changed also some ideias on bricklink forum before and it looks like you are of the "they both to give it to you school" No offense ok? Im sorry but that does not exist. I never told that TLG wants to kill the AFOL market. I say that TLG wants to kill the AFOL business market, not the AFOL builders market. There is a difference here... AFOL builders gives them money VS AFOL business steal money from them.
Look on LEGO.COM. They start selling 1 or 3 units per buyer when they were selling 20 units per buyer on past? Why? Because they dont want the AFOL to buy for reselling. Meanwhile if they need a little extra selling they change from 3 to 10 again per user so they can accomplish they objectives. AFOL resselers sometimes are welcome... but sometimes dont...
You said it all when you wrote "AFOL business frustrates their core business" and I must admit I agree with about 80% of what you had wrote on your post. I just dont agree with the thought that TLG is buying Bricklink with no business intention at all and just to turn it more robust and efficient to the AFOL community etc... bricklink was a robust platform since it started from an excel page publish by DAN on the web about 20 years ago. We didnt need that TLG would buy Bricklink to be robust.
Buying Bricklink is not to kill Bricklink. Buying Bricklink was done to kill your parts business on Bricklink, while this will help TLG improve their own parts business worldwide and regulate the price parts. And if this will not be truth I will have to invite you for a full holiday on my country with all included. And I mean Breakfast, lunch and dinner
As about Legal wars they start one in China and they said they win but they loose They are now paying millions so that China brands dont come to Europe. Did you know that? And no, Lepin is not dead! Lepin is alive but just changed name.
@StormChaser regarding the maintenance of the current BL catalog and inventories: I sure hope you're correct. I'd hate to see all that information simply disappear because we put our trust in a large corporation to do the right thing...
1. So in order for you to be correct when you say they are not killing the AFOL market, the AFOL hobby must be able to exist without a marketplace. I really don't see that happening. I don't know about others but the reason I became an AFOL is finding out about online trade. Suddenly it was possible to get things from the past that I never had as well as parts that I needed for MOCs. I think the marketplace is that missing factor that people in their dark ages don't know about. For one thing, I really can't see them making any profit on sets such as modular buildings, if it were impossible to also buy 400 windows for a flat or a townhall MOC somewhere to go with that modular building street. AFOLs MOCing simply with the parts they get from sets, like kids do, is very hard to imagine. I really don't think there would be that many AFOLs left that way. Secondly, what resellers are basically doing, is turning LEGO products that are not interesting for AFOLs (basically the majority of sets) into products that *are* interesting for AFOLs by turning them into parts. TLG is selling much more of their product thanks to resellers who turn it into something else.
2. Bricklink robust being run by Jay "Seller Tool" Kim? No way. Errors all the time, unstable, years and years of bugs being "fixed" and reappearing, the exodus of people working for them who couldn't stand it anymore, no compensation for volunteers who did so much work, horrible communication (sleeping social media accounts), there are many reasons why people left and BrickOwl came into being. It's far from robust and also, even if it were, there is a large market out there who does not sign up for Bricklink because the threshold is too high - it's not as user friendly as regular webshops and pretty much reserved for those "nerds" who feel comfortable in online communities, and not for the general mainstream public who is just accustomed to easy webshops. So I definitely see a lot of reason for TLG to buy Bricklink and make it stable and accessible. In fact, it would be pretty crazy to let such an important platform be run by a random Korean billionaire - who was essentially a very important and necessary "businesspartner" whether they liked it or not.
I really think they want to manage both markets well. Like growing food as well as keeping cattle. You don't want the cattle to walk all over the food you're growing and eat it all, but you wanna manage a separate pen for them and profit from both. (I think that's where the metaphor ends, TLG is not gonna kill us for money I hope )
By the way, I share people's sentiment about hoping the market will stay independent. But I don't think being run by a Korean billionaire means independence. I think independence means we can sell in multiple places, with a similar catalog that has become common good instead of owned by one company. So I'm glad BrickOwl exists and hope it will keep existing, as well as other platforms that may be out there.
@Teup, Thank you for your detailed answer I read it carefully and once more I agree with some sentences on of your post.
I just cant find out how Lego would buy something just to help AFOLS, and I really try hard believe me, but it would be the first time in history since Lego existence. In fact I dont know any company that had buy something just to preserve they costumers habitat. I keep searching inside my head and I just cant find a single example...
According to you TLG buy Bricklink just to keep it stable to AFOLS, so they can continue to selling parts and steal business from TLG. Does this make sense? Ho, ok they did it also to preserve the catalog. I say that TLG dont need the Bricklink catalog. They have it all off course, after all they were the creators of all sets and parts.
This is all about "show me the money!" Behind and acquisition of this style there is nothing about "giving" or "helping" someone. This is money and business as usual, but I have nothing against such a beautiful and romantic view like yours about this, and God knows how would like to share the same vision that you have about it
Hey, I keep the promises of the full holiday! Lets just wait and see what happens
@Fatbricks well, AFOLs are a mixed bag for LEGO: They add business, and they frustrate business. I don't really see *stolen* business, because me buying sets and sell the parts is only *added* business for them - I make them sell more sets.
The problem is that AFOLs ruin the demand pattern they would like to see. Instead of buying everything equally in small bite size portions, like children, we AFOLs (end users and resellers together) are buying large chunks of specific things at a time. And LEGO is struggling with that. I totally get that. How do you keep collectible minifigures accessible for children with some weekly pocket money but at the same time prevent some AFOLs from buying 20 entire boxes at once? Limiting the number of items per customer helps on their own site, but you can't really prevent it from happening indirectly through retail stores. AFOLs will have an entirely different concept of money than children - and lots more to spend. So I can imagine it's really tough finding a price that makes an X-wing available for children but at the same time prevents AFOLs from going nuts on it.
Whatever they will do with Bricklink, this problem exists as long as the AFOL hobby exists. The only solution is killing the AFOL hobby, which it's clear they don't want to do. Sooo how to solve it? It's a really interesting topic, and I really don't know. I guess they keep making and remaking those ridiculously massive Star Wars sets specifically to clean out the AFOLs wallets and disarm them a little bit
As for Bricklink... For now I see buying Bricklink as a peace treaty. I think they have finally come to terms with the fact that 1. they want AFOLs and 2. the AFOL habitat needs marketplaces, and 3. TLG cannot provide a proper part market all by itself. Whatever they do with Bricklink, the problem of market frustration is inherent to allowing the AFOL hobby, and they'll have to find some other solution for that..
Anyway - you're on I wish I could offer you the same but if they do kill Bricklink I am not at all sure I will be able to afford my rent in the first place
In all discussions we forget one aspect: The AFOL provides inspiration for highly creative people which later in some cases may become designers that work at TLG.
@Teup Your last two posts are very resonate. the two-point comment sufficiently sums up the yet to be seen aspects of this buy. Especially apropos also the comments regarding buyers having to be "nerds" to navigate webshops the way BL has evolved. The current breadth of Bl selling aspects in no way reports the experiences of buyers there and we can be sure that there will be massive changes to that site's online trading practices, how problems are handled, etc. Regarding the two things that are hoped to be preserved: the catalogue and the availability of mass parts- will truly remain to be seen. The round table discussion at TLG are unknown to all of us. What we can assume is that they have all the part, set inventory (with their own numbers) data, and images on hand. That they have a business initiative in place to make profit from the AFOL demand. Don't know how you all do this "making a living" from your passion for making all of this inventory available to us MOC builders, but whatever may befall you, know that we appreciate you!
A couple of you have mentioned that TLG doesn't need fan-sourced catalogs because they already have all that information. I am highly skeptical of that view. TLG has produced an absolutely massive amount of items over many decades, both in-house and through licensing their brand to others. Again, I strongly doubt that they themselves have any databases of items which are as comprehensive as those compiled by fans.
Therefore, I still say that any extensive fan-sourced catalog of items will retain a certain value for TLG, with the value corresponding to the breadth of the catalog. So I expect that they will not dismantle the BL catalog, but instead develop it further beyond its current limitations. TLG owning the catalog is not the best possible outcome, but it's far better than anything that has come before in BL's history.
The best catalog, of course, is one forever owned by the community that built it. That's what I love about Brick Owl. What I don't love is the lack of depth and the disorganization. The first we could rather easily fix as a community, but the second requires significant resources and support from above.
BTW, even the BL catalog is incomplete. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of items released by TLG or their partners which are not included in the catalog. Some are quite probably lost forever.
Correction to the statement about resources and support: not necessarily significant resources, but definitely support, an openness to change, a long-term plan for organizing the existing data with an eye to adding future data, and some site development. Not for the purpose of having a purist catalog, as some have accused me of wanting, but for the purpose of making navigable sense of the catalog and for having the data sensibly organized. That's something both BL and BO currently lack to differing degrees.
However, it is absolutely possible to create an exceptionally well-organized and easily-understood catalog that appeals equally to everyone (purists, casual users, and buyers/sellers). That would be the holy grail of cataloging and it is unquestionably doable. Since fans have not proven themselves capable of doing it yet, I have hope that TLG can make it happen. Unfortunately, they have a track record with web development that is questionable.
@Lawrence i think you have a huge opportunity to capture the “customs” market that BL closed down today. I know this kind of miscellaneous unofficial stuff is hard to catalog in a way for buyers to find it, but I’m sure others can provide suggestions on how to market these kinds of items.
1.2.4 Modified Parts: All parts listed in your store must be genuine LEGO parts in their original, unmodified condition. Custom printed, engraved, chromed, or painted parts are not permitted.
1.2.5 Custom Sets: Custom sets or instructions may be listed, provided they do not infringe on any intellectual property rights, including those of the LEGO Group. Custom sets may not contain modified parts or non LEGO parts such as lighting kits or electric motors.
I think that especially the custom printed parts (e.g. minifigures, tiles) are of great value to the MOC community. I regularly buy such items and use them along with original parts. For example, custom printed tiles with country and language specific signs (store signs, traffic signs) very much add to the flavor of MOC. Like if you want to build a German or French (or any other language of this world) police or fire station, it is lovely to have signs in German or French (or any other language of the world). The customizers provide such material, whereas the official LEGO sets have now only American English versions. I see a great opportunity for BO in this market and would definitely buy such stuff here.
@Teup are you watching what is happening on the other site?
Sudently the stability we talked is worst. Errors on catalog begun for hours with no answers from their help desk.
Sellers with YEARS on Bricklink are being banned!
Yesterday to access our stores we had to first agree with the new Lego rules or they blocked your access to the site and to your store. First agree! Or you loose your all inventory...
Be prepared my friend. This is just the begining 😉
Yeah, well, actually, it seems like totally BL's usual. They need to get off their asses to get things ready for the new owners, and as usual they break more than they fix... It's not a stability problem it seems, just a bug that causes certain types of devices/browsers to just not be operational.. Clearly BL is not able to handle necessary changes very well, most likely due to being understaffed.
But sellers being banned? Are you referring to the deal about custom parts no longer being allowed? That's pretty rough and pretty sudden... I was also thinking what manganschlamm pointed out: Could be a nice opportunity for BO to fill the gap on this one.
@Teup the bug was just for the sellers. I mean if you didn't log on then the catalog worked well and also if you log on just with a buyer account then it also worked no matter the browser you use. Strange, it seems to me that new rules are being developed just for sellers...
Yes I was referring about custom parts. I mean that was permitted for years on Bricklink and in some cases like Chrome parts they were very useful at least to my mocs 🙂 I agree that this could be a great opportunity to BO.
Now the worst thing in my opinion, is the fact that all sellers were forced to accept the new terms, otherwise they could not log in anymore on the site... It's too bad the way Lego impose they strategy to the AFOL community. Even if I didn't agree with the terms and I wanted to delete my account forever I would have to first agree with the terms to log in on the site, backup my inventory and close my store or I would loose everything (inventory, remarks of organized storage, orders, contacts, messages etc...) just to mention a few... This is the Lego way... I'm just not felling anymore secure there, if you know what I mean....
All visitors to the site now are having to accept "Cookies"- this wasn't true in the past. For any buyer or seller to unregister they have always had to mark all incoming or outgoing orders "completed" to be able to do that firmly embedded action. Just an FYI for anyone reading.
Agree, multiple markets help keep balance and generates healthy cost competition (notionally). I truly do wish BL well and that things end up going awesome for everyone there after everything shakes out.
I absolutely adore Brickowl though, from the user interface, to the seller interface, to the analytics, to the extraordinary top-tier admin support, to the lower seller fees - I've been cheerfully 100% all in here since the day I started selling. :-)
Kind of related, I realized I have been unintentionally contributing to BL's user metrics - I've had an account there for years (under svandensen then changed to calibrick maybe 3-4 years ago), and haven't been active there at all for several years (stopped all buys when the brickarms debacle started). Once I start parting out sets again (when I find time, lol), I'll definitely be doing all my buys over here.
I simply stopped visiting BL but finally realized today it was best to formally terminate my account so they show one less "user" in their database. :-) Numbers matter to analysts - seeing that (if enough people are doing it) sends a message (hopefully), which can then (again hopefully!) benefit those that choose to stay.
Terminating my account was harder to find then it should be (likely for obvious reasons, I don't begrudge them that all). Helpfully a search of "unregister" in the forums brought up a link immediately. :-)
Possibly the database access bug of BL was intentionally created to divert the attention of people from the changes to the terms they were forced to accept. Or phrased differently to moderate the anger and frustration of people and to break the potential resistance by getting them focused on something else instead. If you follow the forum discussions on BL, initially there was a lot of venting about the way the new terms were imposed on people and also the content of the new terms. Then when the database access issue surfaced the discussion completely shifted to this topic. Just coincidence? Maybe. Maybe not.
@leopard37 it's OK to communicate new terms, it's not OK to impose new terms even for people who don't agree with the terms and just want to log on to backup their inventory and close their account. And yes, they are privacy related in some way, but made by TLG. I read them from the first to the last line including all dots and commas. Don't agree with terms? Then no log on, no backup, and you lost everything. This is how TLG handle with everything and with all of us.
If that's how it played out Mardosul it's almost certainly illegal in the EU. And given that BL is now apparently subject to Danish (and thus EU) law, it could be worth bringing this to the attention of your national data protection authority - or directly to the EU-wide body.
As the new T&C included new and wide-ranging data sharing provisions, forcing you to accept that without (a) giving you the opportunity to opt out, and (b) not even giving you the chance to close your account without first accepting the new terms, this on face value would seem to be a serious breach of EU data protection laws.
Essentially, all their EU-based users have been forced to agree that BL can share their personal information without being given a chance to prevent it.
@Mardosul "Now the worst thing in my opinion, is the fact that all sellers were forced to accept the new terms, otherwise they could not log in anymore on the site... It's too bad the way Lego impose they strategy to the AFOL community. Even if I didn't agree with the terms and I wanted to delete my account forever I would have to first agree with the terms to log in on the site, backup my inventory and close my store or I would loose everything (inventory, remarks of organized storage, orders, contacts, messages etc...) just to mention a few... This is the Lego way... I'm just not felling anymore secure there, if you know what I mean...."
Wait.... Lego doesn't run Bricklink yet. They just announced they'll be buying it, that's all. So Bricklink is getting off its arse and tidy up the place a bit before new management comes. I totally agree it was a crappy move by them, but it's Bricklink's old management doing this. Both the way things are changed and the way things are communicated is 100% classic Bricklink. And I'm pretty tired of it by now. Which is exactly why I am happy LEGO is going to take over - hopefully they are going to be more professional about such things...
@Hoddie not yet... There's nothing more than an announcement of the sale for now... "LEGO® is a trademark of the LEGO Group of companies which does not sponsor, authorize, or endorse this site." - I suppose the day that this line changes, we know that LEGO is in the drivers seat.
@Teup, off course, you are saying that the development team is the original from BL, after all TLG will need them for at least one year or more, but the business was made already and as I wrote this words there are someone from TLG stablishing some rules and giving some new orders directly to that development team. Or did BL change more in just one week than in a year without no intervention of TLG? Hummmm I don't know 😇 I guess Imposing new rules and changing the way that site works started even before the so called "Afol Design Program"..... Ups... OMG I said it... 😁
@Mardosul well, yes, it seems that the ban on custom items is definitely imposed from LEGO. That makes sense and is probably fair enough. It would seem strange to me if the transition to LEGO-only products is yet to take place while they're already running the show - full endorsement, logos and all. I blame the old management for rushing that change the way they do. And possibly putting sellers instantly out of business, which is really really freaky.
And the rest of it looks like Bricklink trying to get the site in the state that they advertised it to be in the first place when it was on display (they've claimed it to be GDPR compliant since the beginning.. and it just wasn't. and now suddenly they're taking privacy seriously). Anyway, I'm pretty sure that hitting us with the new terms the way they did is just the usual old management's antics. I imagine they're doing renovations that are partly informed by LEGO but they're doing it totally their classic way, chaotic, buggy and no communication and all.
Not necessarily defending LEGO and saying everything will be amazing when they run it, though... their own site would suggest otherwise... but still I have hopes that generally things will improve
With regards to chromed items, I just wanted to re-clarify our current position regarding custom items. Brick Owl is only for the sale of items that are either created directly by LEGO, or licensed by LEGO. We do not currently, and do not intend to allow the sale of Third Party items. This would include things such as custom capes, reproduction sticker sheets, replacement pneumatic hoses, chromed parts, custom printed parts, third party weapons etc.
Although we certainly understand and respect that there is a market for these items, we publicly decided in 2017 to draw a line as to what items Brick Owl would include.
Maybe the policy concerning custom items could be carefully re-considered in view of recent developments. I fully understand that BO should not be fully opened to about anything. But what about permitting items that are based on original LEGO parts, such as chromed parts, and custom printed parts?
Thanks for the clarification Lawrence, clear policy. Fine by me, though I do hope the custom parts business finds decent other channels for the sake of those who use them and have a business in them.
Rather oddly, Bricklink seems to be going to allow parts with removed prints, as an exception to the ban on modified parts.
The best thing one can do now is to collect the direct E-mail contacts of sellers providing such custom items, before the purging will start on BL.
About the parts with removed prints: I want to see how someone can demonstrate the difference between a part where the print has come off from usage and a part where it has come off by actively removing it using chemicals. Even Russell seems to understand that he cannot.
I understand BO's policy regards custom items. This may not be their reason for it but copyright issues alone could invite serious repercussions down the line, and it's easier to have a blanket ban than decide on a case by case basis whether something is iffy or not (were that even possible).
@manganschlamm I've never seen a part that lost its print in usage, not even classic space torsos Or are there some particular parts that I'm not aware of that wear easily and result in a 100% perfectly removed print?
Anyway it seems like a strange argument to me that a custom part is allowed when the customisation is similar to - or an extention of - the way parts could damage in use. Then you could also allow classic castle saddles with one clip or no clips, that originally had two clips.. Also I have a horse lying around here that I removed the bridles of.. no idea if that'd be allowed or not. All in all, I think I tend to prefer the "all or nothing" policy...
From this statement alone I do not see why you will not list the LEGO ADP sets? They can't be much more clearly "licensed" and there will be more, that's pretty much a certainty now.
Regardless I / we? respect your decision, however PLEASE decide!!
Just wait until the deal "closes" (in just a week or two) and TLG immediately takes down the BL catalog complete with pricing data and inventories. Many sellers of complete older sets will be left "flying blind". So glad I haven't agreed to the new terms on BL - I always like to actually read what I'm signing away. Now with the TLG buyout, the binding arbitration clause in the new terms is going to bite quite a few sellers in the behind IMO.
@Graham First, I AM NOT a lawyer.That being said, it's been my personal experience, and that of a lot of others, that requiring binding arbitration for disputes and not allowing users agreeing to the "new" terms to be part of class action lawsuits, hurts "little guys". I for one, do not see TLG continuing free,unfettered access to the BL catalog. I'm guessing it's shutdown to ostensibly be revamped (most extreme possibility) to a monthly subscription fee or pay-as-you-go(more likely IMO). When and IF old-time BL contributors object and possibly threaten legal action, then the arbitration clause will "bite". Just my two cents worth.
S. in my first comment meant to say possibly takes down - I have no foreknowledge of anything TLG plans to do
Well, if you look at the site, it no longer has the disclaimer at the bottom and fees are sent to the Lego Group, so the takeover seems complete. Going to be a bit interesting to see what happens the next couple of months.
@wittco Both BL and BO are pretty unique trading places, lots of sellers selling the same product, I can't think of anything close to what we do.
Honestly the arbitration clause, seems sensible to me, what legal action can you possibly see need for? It'll be protection against these lawyer sharks who will find something to make $$$$ thru a class action. Think the recent attack on German sellers by a group of lawyers!
LEGO bought BL for two reasons IMO - to make money - and to protect the brand. Why would they maim the "golden goose"? They want the AFoL market, I believe it was the ADP sets that opened their eyes to a new revenue stream. Personally I'm not worried, I read the entire ToS. I don't see anything much change, other than all the {cough} "custom" items being given the boot.
Comments
Tyson.
I think in the absence of any other information, I have to assume TLG made the investment (which I can only guess wasn't cosmically THAT much $$, maybe low millions?) to:
1. Get the data - data makes the world go 'round these days and is worth more than gold
2. Kill Brickarms (they've already said that in essence in a recent interview)
Everything else is just speculation. I do wish BL and TLG well in their pursuits over there. I continue to strongly feel that competition on REASONABLY level footing is healthy and that BO will do nothing but continue to grow. Now if something disastrous happens like they start price-setting over there and undercutting sellers, etc. (I truly don't see that happening - this is kind of financial peanuts compared to their bread and butter earnings), then we won't be able to compete over here either.
I just don't see that though. I think in the end we'll be fine over there (and hopefully keep showing up in the top three-four hits in Google LEGO searches) and continue to see growth, and BL will continue to see growth on their side from LEGO help desk staff directly steering people over there from when Pick a Brick is missing an item (until they decide how they're going to - if they're going to - merge all that stuff). LEGO used to steer people to BL anyway from what I hear, so I don't see any change really there.
My only real concern is for people who use BrickSync and sell on both platforms. I do worry that one day TLG would wonder why the heck they have that open API and force sellers to choose - and if they all choose BL, that will hurt BO. Buyers go where the sellers are.
Repeat after me: Buyers go where the sellers are!!
Translation: Give selling on BO a shot! Heck, use BrickSync and sell on both if that is what makes you comfortable. :-) But I think you'll find a lot of happiness over here if you haven't given BO a shot yet! :-) (end shameless plug for BO)
leopard37: I'd be lying if I said I hadn't missed being part of the online LEGO fan community during the past 11 months, including missing you and some of the other members I became acquainted with during my 15+ years on BL. We'll see how TLG handles things, I guess. Ideally, they will have a long-term plan for preserving the data we've all compiled and will share it publicly. I may be hoping for too much there, though . . .
I will write here the same that I had written on Bricklink a few months ago. And please dont get me wrong. I LOVE LEGO as the most beautiful toy ever made IMO. When Bricklink launch the Afol design program with the Lego support at that time I said: "There was so much to say about this, but I will probably just sit down and wait". Now Bricklink was acquired by TLG. This means so much... really so much....
Lego tried to get the parts business with "pick a brick", after that failed, they had come with a most serious strategy and launch "Bricks and pieces". All of this failed. Even their LDD digital designer software was bad and failed and was abandoned letting the Afol community with no more support on LDD. So what they did? They did what every big company do when parallel markets are stealing business from them, They buy or they kill! They tried to kill indirectly without success, because Briclink was a community supported by independent sellers and contributors. So they buy it, after all it was not so expensive for them... They had buy the web platform, not the stores on that platform, anyway they now have control of everything. They even get a full tool like Studio who in few months turns to be a better experience than LDD was during years.I will pass the China market, competition, Europe regulation about outside markets getting in etc, brickarms is nothing compared to Lepin, Decol, Xingbao just to mention a few. All non European markets like China, Brasil and EUA are full of this brands since TLG open factories in China. And I say again: There would be so much to say about this... because if Lepin, Decol and Xingbao and 10 more China parts factories dont enter directly on Europe is because someone was paying really good money for them to be quiet.
Now you can probably ask. Why is this guy so concerned? As about me, Im not. Im just a little AFOL, with a little store with a few parts and sets. I just sell Lego to buy more Lego. Lego is not a business for me anymore. Lego is my beautiful toy, my hobby that relax me and help my brain move forward. But I have seen what happened to BL as an exactly copy +paste for software companies, car brands, pharma etc, and if someone believe that TLG had buy Bricklink just to help the AFOL community I´ll be better completely wrong on my thoughts. At the time Microsoft corporation had buy Hotmail.com they also said it was for helping all the mail community users
Why such a big post and why my concern? It hurt me to see TLG buying easily near 20 years of a hard work community with contributors all over the world. And Im not talking about me once again. I got more from bricklink that I gave to it. Some of you worked hard on Bricklink catalog and proposing changes to improve and making that site grow up. And now someone give a few millions and take control of everything. Its sad
Buying Bricklink to kill it is 1. not very useful as AFOLs can't exist without a marketplace so the whole effort of targeting the AFOL market will have been a waste, and 2. not efficient because people can sell elsewhere. It would be more efficient to start legal wars if they're trying to kill part selling at large.
While I normally completely disregard what companies say, for now to me it really looks like what they want is in fact what they say they want: A robust platform so the AFOL hobby can live.
Look on LEGO.COM. They start selling 1 or 3 units per buyer when they were selling 20 units per buyer on past? Why? Because they dont want the AFOL to buy for reselling. Meanwhile if they need a little extra selling they change from 3 to 10 again per user so they can accomplish they objectives. AFOL resselers sometimes are welcome... but sometimes dont...
You said it all when you wrote "AFOL business frustrates their core business" and I must admit I agree with about 80% of what you had wrote on your post. I just dont agree with the thought that TLG is buying Bricklink with no business intention at all and just to turn it more robust and efficient to the AFOL community etc... bricklink was a robust platform since it started from an excel page publish by DAN on the web about 20 years ago. We didnt need that TLG would buy Bricklink to be robust.
Buying Bricklink is not to kill Bricklink. Buying Bricklink was done to kill your parts business on Bricklink, while this will help TLG improve their own parts business worldwide and regulate the price parts. And if this will not be truth I will have to invite you for a full holiday on my country with all included. And I mean Breakfast, lunch and dinner
As about Legal wars they start one in China and they said they win but they loose
2 main points:
1. So in order for you to be correct when you say they are not killing the AFOL market, the AFOL hobby must be able to exist without a marketplace. I really don't see that happening. I don't know about others but the reason I became an AFOL is finding out about online trade. Suddenly it was possible to get things from the past that I never had as well as parts that I needed for MOCs. I think the marketplace is that missing factor that people in their dark ages don't know about.
For one thing, I really can't see them making any profit on sets such as modular buildings, if it were impossible to also buy 400 windows for a flat or a townhall MOC somewhere to go with that modular building street. AFOLs MOCing simply with the parts they get from sets, like kids do, is very hard to imagine. I really don't think there would be that many AFOLs left that way. Secondly, what resellers are basically doing, is turning LEGO products that are not interesting for AFOLs (basically the majority of sets) into products that *are* interesting for AFOLs by turning them into parts. TLG is selling much more of their product thanks to resellers who turn it into something else.
2. Bricklink robust being run by Jay "Seller Tool" Kim? No way. Errors all the time, unstable, years and years of bugs being "fixed" and reappearing, the exodus of people working for them who couldn't stand it anymore, no compensation for volunteers who did so much work, horrible communication (sleeping social media accounts), there are many reasons why people left and BrickOwl came into being.
It's far from robust and also, even if it were, there is a large market out there who does not sign up for Bricklink because the threshold is too high - it's not as user friendly as regular webshops and pretty much reserved for those "nerds" who feel comfortable in online communities, and not for the general mainstream public who is just accustomed to easy webshops.
So I definitely see a lot of reason for TLG to buy Bricklink and make it stable and accessible. In fact, it would be pretty crazy to let such an important platform be run by a random Korean billionaire - who was essentially a very important and necessary "businesspartner" whether they liked it or not.
I really think they want to manage both markets well. Like growing food as well as keeping cattle. You don't want the cattle to walk all over the food you're growing and eat it all, but you wanna manage a separate pen for them and profit from both. (I think that's where the metaphor ends, TLG is not gonna kill us for money I hope
By the way, I share people's sentiment about hoping the market will stay independent. But I don't think being run by a Korean billionaire means independence. I think independence means we can sell in multiple places, with a similar catalog that has become common good instead of owned by one company. So I'm glad BrickOwl exists and hope it will keep existing, as well as other platforms that may be out there.
I just cant find out how Lego would buy something just to help AFOLS, and I really try hard believe me, but it would be the first time in history since Lego existence. In fact I dont know any company that had buy something just to preserve they costumers habitat. I keep searching inside my head and I just cant find a single example...
According to you TLG buy Bricklink just to keep it stable to AFOLS, so they can continue to selling parts and steal business from TLG. Does this make sense? Ho, ok they did it also to preserve the catalog. I say that TLG dont need the Bricklink catalog. They have it all off course, after all they were the creators of all sets and parts.
This is all about "show me the money!" Behind and acquisition of this style there is nothing about "giving" or "helping" someone. This is money and business as usual, but I have nothing against such a beautiful and romantic view like yours about this, and God knows how would like to share the same vision that you have about it
Hey, I keep the promises of the full holiday! Lets just wait and see what happens
The problem is that AFOLs ruin the demand pattern they would like to see. Instead of buying everything equally in small bite size portions, like children, we AFOLs (end users and resellers together) are buying large chunks of specific things at a time. And LEGO is struggling with that. I totally get that. How do you keep collectible minifigures accessible for children with some weekly pocket money but at the same time prevent some AFOLs from buying 20 entire boxes at once? Limiting the number of items per customer helps on their own site, but you can't really prevent it from happening indirectly through retail stores. AFOLs will have an entirely different concept of money than children - and lots more to spend. So I can imagine it's really tough finding a price that makes an X-wing available for children but at the same time prevents AFOLs from going nuts on it.
Whatever they will do with Bricklink, this problem exists as long as the AFOL hobby exists. The only solution is killing the AFOL hobby, which it's clear they don't want to do. Sooo how to solve it? It's a really interesting topic, and I really don't know. I guess they keep making and remaking those ridiculously massive Star Wars sets specifically to clean out the AFOLs wallets and disarm them a little bit
As for Bricklink... For now I see buying Bricklink as a peace treaty. I think they have finally come to terms with the fact that 1. they want AFOLs and 2. the AFOL habitat needs marketplaces, and 3. TLG cannot provide a proper part market all by itself.
Whatever they do with Bricklink, the problem of market frustration is inherent to allowing the AFOL hobby, and they'll have to find some other solution for that..
Anyway - you're on
Your last two posts are very resonate.
the two-point comment sufficiently sums up the yet to be seen aspects of this buy.
Especially apropos also the comments regarding buyers having to be "nerds" to navigate webshops the way BL has evolved.
The current breadth of Bl selling aspects in no way reports the experiences of buyers there and we can be sure that there will be massive changes to that site's online trading practices, how problems are handled, etc.
Regarding the two things that are hoped to be preserved: the catalogue and the availability of mass parts- will truly remain to be seen.
The round table discussion at TLG are unknown to all of us. What we can assume is that they have all the part, set inventory (with their own numbers) data, and images on hand. That they have a business initiative in place to make profit from the AFOL demand.
Don't know how you all do this "making a living" from your passion for making all of this inventory available to us MOC builders, but whatever may befall you, know that we appreciate you!
Therefore, I still say that any extensive fan-sourced catalog of items will retain a certain value for TLG, with the value corresponding to the breadth of the catalog. So I expect that they will not dismantle the BL catalog, but instead develop it further beyond its current limitations. TLG owning the catalog is not the best possible outcome, but it's far better than anything that has come before in BL's history.
The best catalog, of course, is one forever owned by the community that built it. That's what I love about Brick Owl. What I don't love is the lack of depth and the disorganization. The first we could rather easily fix as a community, but the second requires significant resources and support from above.
BTW, even the BL catalog is incomplete. There are thousands, if not tens of thousands, of items released by TLG or their partners which are not included in the catalog. Some are quite probably lost forever.
However, it is absolutely possible to create an exceptionally well-organized and easily-understood catalog that appeals equally to everyone (purists, casual users, and buyers/sellers). That would be the holy grail of cataloging and it is unquestionably doable. Since fans have not proven themselves capable of doing it yet, I have hope that TLG can make it happen. Unfortunately, they have a track record with web development that is questionable.
1.2.4 Modified Parts: All parts listed in your store must be genuine LEGO parts in their original, unmodified condition. Custom printed, engraved, chromed, or painted parts are not permitted.
1.2.5 Custom Sets: Custom sets or instructions may be listed, provided they do not infringe on any intellectual property rights, including those of the LEGO Group. Custom sets may not contain modified parts or non LEGO parts such as lighting kits or electric motors.
These are significant to the AFOL hobby.
Sudently the stability we talked is worst. Errors on catalog begun for hours with no answers from their help desk.
Sellers with YEARS on Bricklink are being banned!
Yesterday to access our stores we had to first agree with the new Lego rules or they blocked your access to the site and to your store. First agree! Or you loose your all inventory...
Be prepared my friend. This is just the begining 😉
Clearly BL is not able to handle necessary changes very well, most likely due to being understaffed.
But sellers being banned? Are you referring to the deal about custom parts no longer being allowed? That's pretty rough and pretty sudden... I was also thinking what manganschlamm pointed out: Could be a nice opportunity for BO to fill the gap on this one.
Yes I was referring about custom parts. I mean that was permitted for years on Bricklink and in some cases like Chrome parts they were very useful at least to my mocs 🙂 I agree that this could be a great opportunity to BO.
Now the worst thing in my opinion, is the fact that all sellers were forced to accept the new terms, otherwise they could not log in anymore on the site... It's too bad the way Lego impose they strategy to the AFOL community. Even if I didn't agree with the terms and I wanted to delete my account forever I would have to first agree with the terms to log in on the site, backup my inventory and close my store or I would loose everything (inventory, remarks of organized storage, orders, contacts, messages etc...) just to mention a few... This is the Lego way... I'm just not felling anymore secure there, if you know what I mean....
For any buyer or seller to unregister they have always had to mark all incoming or outgoing orders "completed" to be able to do that firmly embedded action. Just an FYI for anyone reading.
Tyson.
I absolutely adore Brickowl though, from the user interface, to the seller interface, to the analytics, to the extraordinary top-tier admin support, to the lower seller fees - I've been cheerfully 100% all in here since the day I started selling. :-)
Kind of related, I realized I have been unintentionally contributing to BL's user metrics - I've had an account there for years (under svandensen then changed to calibrick maybe 3-4 years ago), and haven't been active there at all for several years (stopped all buys when the brickarms debacle started). Once I start parting out sets again (when I find time, lol), I'll definitely be doing all my buys over here.
I simply stopped visiting BL but finally realized today it was best to formally terminate my account so they show one less "user" in their database. :-) Numbers matter to analysts - seeing that (if enough people are doing it) sends a message (hopefully), which can then (again hopefully!) benefit those that choose to stay.
Terminating my account was harder to find then it should be (likely for obvious reasons, I don't begrudge them that all). Helpfully a search of "unregister" in the forums brought up a link immediately. :-)
As the new T&C included new and wide-ranging data sharing provisions, forcing you to accept that without (a) giving you the opportunity to opt out, and (b) not even giving you the chance to close your account without first accepting the new terms, this on face value would seem to be a serious breach of EU data protection laws.
Essentially, all their EU-based users have been forced to agree that BL can share their personal information without being given a chance to prevent it.
"Now the worst thing in my opinion, is the fact that all sellers were forced to accept the new terms, otherwise they could not log in anymore on the site... It's too bad the way Lego impose they strategy to the AFOL community. Even if I didn't agree with the terms and I wanted to delete my account forever I would have to first agree with the terms to log in on the site, backup my inventory and close my store or I would loose everything (inventory, remarks of organized storage, orders, contacts, messages etc...) just to mention a few... This is the Lego way... I'm just not felling anymore secure there, if you know what I mean...."
Wait.... Lego doesn't run Bricklink yet. They just announced they'll be buying it, that's all. So Bricklink is getting off its arse and tidy up the place a bit before new management comes. I totally agree it was a crappy move by them, but it's Bricklink's old management doing this. Both the way things are changed and the way things are communicated is 100% classic Bricklink. And I'm pretty tired of it by now. Which is exactly why I am happy LEGO is going to take over - hopefully they are going to be more professional about such things...
"LEGO® is a trademark of the LEGO Group of companies which does not sponsor, authorize, or endorse this site." - I suppose the day that this line changes, we know that LEGO is in the drivers seat.
And the rest of it looks like Bricklink trying to get the site in the state that they advertised it to be in the first place when it was on display (they've claimed it to be GDPR compliant since the beginning.. and it just wasn't. and now suddenly they're taking privacy seriously). Anyway, I'm pretty sure that hitting us with the new terms the way they did is just the usual old management's antics. I imagine they're doing renovations that are partly informed by LEGO but they're doing it totally their classic way, chaotic, buggy and no communication and all.
Not necessarily defending LEGO and saying everything will be amazing when they run it, though... their own site would suggest otherwise... but still I have hopes that generally things will improve
Although we certainly understand and respect that there is a market for these items, we publicly decided in 2017 to draw a line as to what items Brick Owl would include.
Rather oddly, Bricklink seems to be going to allow parts with removed prints, as an exception to the ban on modified parts.
About the parts with removed prints: I want to see how someone can demonstrate the difference between a part where the print has come off from usage and a part where it has come off by actively removing it using chemicals. Even Russell seems to understand that he cannot.
Anyway it seems like a strange argument to me that a custom part is allowed when the customisation is similar to - or an extention of - the way parts could damage in use. Then you could also allow classic castle saddles with one clip or no clips, that originally had two clips.. Also I have a horse lying around here that I removed the bridles of.. no idea if that'd be allowed or not. All in all, I think I tend to prefer the "all or nothing" policy...
From this statement alone I do not see why you will not list the LEGO ADP sets? They can't be much more clearly "licensed" and there will be more, that's pretty much a certainty now.
Regardless I / we? respect your decision, however PLEASE decide!!
Thanks
That’s one heck of a series of statements! What basis do you have for this assertion?
I read all the way thru, don’t see anything that would scare me, let alone “bite me”
First,
I AM NOT a lawyer.That being said, it's been my personal experience, and that of a lot of others, that requiring binding arbitration for disputes and not allowing users agreeing to the "new" terms to be part of class action lawsuits, hurts "little guys". I for one, do not see TLG continuing free,unfettered access to the BL catalog. I'm guessing it's shutdown to ostensibly be revamped (most extreme possibility) to a monthly subscription fee or pay-as-you-go(more likely IMO). When and IF old-time BL contributors object and possibly threaten legal action, then the arbitration clause will "bite". Just my two cents worth.
S. in my first comment meant to say possibly takes down - I have no foreknowledge of anything TLG plans to do
Both BL and BO are pretty unique trading places, lots of sellers selling the same product, I can't think of anything close to what we do.
Honestly the arbitration clause, seems sensible to me, what legal action can you possibly see need for? It'll be protection against these lawyer sharks who will find something to make $$$$ thru a class action. Think the recent attack on German sellers by a group of lawyers!
LEGO bought BL for two reasons IMO - to make money - and to protect the brand.
Why would they maim the "golden goose"? They want the AFoL market, I believe it was the ADP sets that opened their eyes to a new revenue stream.
Personally I'm not worried, I read the entire ToS. I don't see anything much change, other than all the {cough} "custom" items being given the boot.