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Checkout-Button, Choking-Warning
Hi,
i just set up my store here in Brick Owl in order to see if there is a way to run it in accordance with the german law.
It seems like i could set up a custom page for the "Impressum", which has to be accessible from every page in the store. Very good, BL doesn't have that.
What i am missing is the german choking-warning: "Nicht für Kinder unter 36 Monaten geeignet." with the corresponding picture. Unfortunately the current english note on the bottom of each page is not enough.
I also tried to make a purchase at an other german seller to see if the Checkout-Button is lettered with "Zahlungspflichtig bestellen" oder something similar. This is not the case, the caption is "Checkout", which is not in accordance with the german law.
I heard of the good communication of the BO administration and hope you can realize this points with the help of a lawyer as soon as possible to make this site a legal alternative to BL. I think this is your chance to get a load of german sellers to join your platform.
I am looking forward to open my store when the mentioned points are realized.
i just set up my store here in Brick Owl in order to see if there is a way to run it in accordance with the german law.
It seems like i could set up a custom page for the "Impressum", which has to be accessible from every page in the store. Very good, BL doesn't have that.
What i am missing is the german choking-warning: "Nicht für Kinder unter 36 Monaten geeignet." with the corresponding picture. Unfortunately the current english note on the bottom of each page is not enough.
I also tried to make a purchase at an other german seller to see if the Checkout-Button is lettered with "Zahlungspflichtig bestellen" oder something similar. This is not the case, the caption is "Checkout", which is not in accordance with the german law.
I heard of the good communication of the BO administration and hope you can realize this points with the help of a lawyer as soon as possible to make this site a legal alternative to BL. I think this is your chance to get a load of german sellers to join your platform.
I am looking forward to open my store when the mentioned points are realized.
This discussion has been closed.
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Currently i can see the shipping costs after i put an article into the cart. I think this is not in accordance to the german law and will be penalized by IDO.
Is there a way to change this?
Just the page on the bottom is not enough i guess...
The concrete requirements for practise arise from courts law.
You can find examples of what is ok and what is not here (in german):
https://www.it-recht-kanzlei.de/Thema/preisangabenverordnung.html?page=4
A "link-on-the-bottom"-solution is not mentioned there and i guess will not be until IDO or similar "companies" sue someone because of it. I don't want to be "someone" because it is associated with high costs. I would prefer to stick to the solutions that have been approved of the BGH (highest court in Germany). This would be the link to the shipping-costs in the description of the item (or at least not at the bottom of the page).
I would really appreciate a feedback from other german sellers as well.
For info, EU law does not require what you suggest - it requires only that a clear and unambiguous price be given before the customer is asked to commit to a contract of sale (and thus, the Request a Quote function here is perfectly legal as per EU law). But that's not to say Germany didn't add their own specific requirements when transposing EU law into domestic law.
I would be cautious to believe what is being claimed without actual proof from, say, a German consumer association or business organisation (one separate from those sending out the demands for payment).
https://www.haendlerbund.de/de/news/aktuelles/rechtliches/2500-versandhinweise-richtig-angeben-so-schuetzen-sich-vor-abmahnungen
The link-solution is mentioned in the third section of the article. The text is very simple so you might put the text into an online translator.
I am a little disappointed about the missing participation of german sellers in this thread. I think this problem effects each of us.
I don't want to experience the same mass-closing as it is currently happening on BL because the site is not compatible to german law since many years. I would like to clarify this asap and in my case before i open the store. I am very certain that IDO will take a look at the sellers on BO and they will remind us that this solution is not legal. If they do so, it will cost many people a lot of money.
How can we proceed with this topic?
https://brickscout.com/de/shop/MoreThanBricks/products/detail/4059217355478?condition=NEW
This applys to all store on the platform, not just german stores.
This page doesn't show price including shipping. Either they're compliant or they're not.
Each store gives an indication of shipping once the cart is populated, again unless an item in the cart has 'force quote' set by the seller or they haven't set up shipping methods.
The only thing that BrickOwl doesn't seem to have is a "+ shipping" on each individual part's page. But that page does have a link to "Shipping" at the bottom of the page. The information is not hidden, in both methods it is available to the customer by clicking a simple link.
EU law does not require the cost of shipping to be shown anywhere except immediately prior to the step where the customer is confirming their acceptance of the sales contract.
> https://brickscout.com/en/products/detail/4059217029461/part__pillow02/medium-orange-belville-cloth-pillow-4-x-4-with-border-of-diagonally-embossed-squares
>
> This page doesn't show price including shipping. Either they're compliant or they're not.
This is a catalog-page and not an actual shop. You can not put items in your cart from this page, therefore it is ok that there are no shpping costs shown. This is actually explicitly ok, there is a decision from the BGH (highest court in Germany) about this topic. The informations about the shipping costs have to be on the following page, where you can put the item in your cart. (BGH GRUR 2008, 84 Rn. 34)
> @Hoddie said:
> Each store gives an indication of shipping once the cart is populated...
This is exactly the point, the information has to be accessible !before! the cart is populated. It doesn't have to be calculated, because that is impossible because no one knows how much the customer will order. But you have to give a link to the shipping costs where the consumer can inform himself about the shipping costs and calculate them by himself.
> @Hoddie said:
> EU law does not require the cost of shipping to be shown anywhere except immediately prior to the step where the customer is confirming their acceptance of the sales contract.
EU law is not relevant to the german sellers. It is only relevant to the german legislature. The relevant german law in this case is the "Preisangabenverordnung".
Hoddie, please don't get me wrong. I am very thankful for your comments. I don't think that anyone gets distracted by the way BO shows the shipping costs to the customer. The only problem are IDO and other plagues that infest this country and are making a good amount of money on little sellers that don't halt strictly to this law which is mostly modeled by courts law and therefore very hard to understand.
I also totally understand why there cannot be changes to a whole website, just because one single person says that it is not ok in his country. There are many more and much bigger sellers out there on this platform and i haven't heard of them until now. I hope that there will be someone who can either confirm oder reject this with a source.
In case i am right i have two ideas how to get this implemented:
1. Put the link to the shipping costs per default on every page in the shop. I don't think this would disturb anyone, even in countrys where it is not necessary. If it disturbs many people, make it optional.
2. Allow links in the comments of an article, so i can put a link to the shipping costs on every page if i want to.
1. Put the link to the shipping costs per default on every page in the shop. I don't think this would disturb anyone, even in countrys where it is not necessary. If it disturbs many people, make it optional. >>>>
But that exists.
> <<<< In case i am right i have two ideas how to get this implemented:
> 1. Put the link to the shipping costs per default on every page in the shop. I don't think this would disturb anyone, even in countrys where it is not necessary. If it disturbs many people, make it optional. >>>>
>
> But that exists.
Not in the way i described it above...
Preisangabenverordnung (PAngV): https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/pangv/BJNR105800985.html
§ 1 (2) PAngV:
Whoever offers consumers goods or services in a commercial or businesslike manner or who regularly offers them goods or services for the purpose of concluding a distance selling contract, must specify
1. that the prices required for goods or services include VAT and other price components, and
2. whether additional freight, delivery or shipping costs or other costs accrue.
-> This is just saying, we have to inform the customer about the shipping costs.
§ 1 (6) PAngV:
The information must be in accordance with the general concept of traffic and the principles of price clarity and fairness. Anyone who is required to provide information in accordance with this regulation must clearly assign it to the offer or advertising and make it easily recognizable and clearly legible or otherwise easily identifiable. In the breakdown of prices, the overall prices should be emphasized.
-> This means, it has to be very clear, that the shipping costs are clearly assigned to the offer.
There is a decision from BGH (file number: I ZR 50/07), that you can read here: https://lexetius.com/2009,4010
A decision from BGH binds other courts in Germany.
The BGH-judges made it clear, that it is not enough, that the shipping costs are shown, after the customer puts the articles in the cart. (note 11)
They made it also lear, that it is ok if you put a note "zzgl. Versandkosten" (plus shipping costs) in the immediate vicinity of the product if the note is clickable. The click has to open a window that contains the detailed shipping costs. (note 29)
This case is the reason why nearly all german shops do it this way.
This will be my last post because I don't want to distract from your request. And take what I say with a pinch of salt because I'm no lawyer, but I am an expert in EU consumer law because that's my job. Member states are free to set whatever requirements they like of national retailers, but they do not have jurisdiction over the retailers of the other 27 member states. This means they cannot impose something that ostensibly affects only national retailers but actually places a trade barrier on the retailers of other member states (there are narrowly defined exceptions that involve restricted items like chemicals, medicine, etc. where a member state is free to impose barriers for their own reasons).
This 'requirement' places a trade barrier between your business and BrickOwl, a business located in the UK. It would be impossible to require all EU-based retailers to meet the requirements of 28 different member states and this is precisely the reason why consumer law was agreed to be an EU competency. German-based retailers are at a competitive disadvantage if they are excluded from EU-based marketplaces such as BrickOwl, and those marketplaces face trade barriers if they're required to meet the laws that each of the 28 member states places only on their own national retailers.
BrickOwl could solve your problem by adding the link to shipping. But what if Latvian members also have a request? And then Irish members? Then Cypriot? Italian? Greek? Swedish? Etc. You get the idea. As I said above, this is exactly why consumer law was made an EU competency, to remove such barriers to trade. Allowing member states to erect barriers via abuse of their right to set requirements of their own national retailers is, I believe, contrary to EU consumer law.
Me saying that doesn't solve your problem. I don't know how to resolve your issue unless BrickOwl is willing to do what you ask, but they could then face a barrage of requests from other members. Somebody, somewhere, needs to challenge this requirement with the German organisation in charge of upholding German/EU consumer law. If they rule in favour of this requirement, the next step would be to challenge it at the EU level. But this is a crazy amount of work for something so minor.
> I understand what you're saying the requirements are (the "...plus shipping" note) but I still think BrickOwl meets the spirit of what you write. The shipping costs are not hidden in any way, they are behind a clickable link as required. Is the term "the immediate vicinity of' clearly defined anywhere? Could it not be argued that being on the same page qualifies? Who makes that judgement?
Honestly i had the same thought as i wrote this sentence. I couldn't find a case for this specific question. The BO-solution with the link on the bottom of the page differs from what the majority of german (non-lego)shops use as a standard. I hope this is okay but the only way to be sure is to sue someone about this variant. IDO would be someone who will first tell you that you did something wrong because you did it different than others and no judge has said that you are right. You either have to pay or risk a trial. The judges will tell us what is right. This will take years and cost many people a lot of money. I just hope that BO will change in order to minimize this risk :(
My personal solution for now will be something like "incl. VAT plus shipping*".
The shipping-page on the bottom will be named like "*shipping".
I think the average user is going to understand the hint with the "*" and i hope this is compliant with the law.
Thank you for your answers so far Hoddie, i really appreciate them.