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When you "know" someone is scamming but you don't "know"...
What if you had a buyer
-who is new and only speaks Portuguese and says he doesn't understand the site
-who claims he miswrote his address in his profile and sends his correct one but doesn't update it on BO for another week
-who asks for your whatsapp and if you will sell outside of BrickOwl
-who asks that a bit more after you refuse
-who seems very interested in when a small order will arrive and asks twice about tracking
-who learns there is no tracking and then places another more valuable order JUST under the limit for tracked shipping
-who then claims both orders did not arrive
-when you cannot recall a single order out of thousands of that shipping method that did not arrive
What would you do? Well, I can actually imagine the first order indeed did not arrive because the address could have been wrong, so that makes the notion of both orders lost a bit less of an extreme coincidence than it would be if the address was correct.... but still, I just know something is wrong, but would you just go ahead and refund both orders? :S
-who is new and only speaks Portuguese and says he doesn't understand the site
-who claims he miswrote his address in his profile and sends his correct one but doesn't update it on BO for another week
-who asks for your whatsapp and if you will sell outside of BrickOwl
-who asks that a bit more after you refuse
-who seems very interested in when a small order will arrive and asks twice about tracking
-who learns there is no tracking and then places another more valuable order JUST under the limit for tracked shipping
-who then claims both orders did not arrive
-when you cannot recall a single order out of thousands of that shipping method that did not arrive
What would you do? Well, I can actually imagine the first order indeed did not arrive because the address could have been wrong, so that makes the notion of both orders lost a bit less of an extreme coincidence than it would be if the address was correct.... but still, I just know something is wrong, but would you just go ahead and refund both orders? :S
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Let us know the username so we can all block them.... ?
Brasil is another matter, lot's of corruption and theft (known facts), most Brasilian buyers will check out by selecting tracking themselves (I guess they know what's best for them). But I have also shipped without tracking, without any problems. It's a gamble for both buyer and seller I suppose, sometimes you win, sometimes you loose. Which doesn't exclude a potential rotten apple offcourse who will see Paypal as the 'insurance' in stead of paying for it.
> How is using PayPal's Buyer Protection abuse?
If you know someone is posting without tracking, you just put a claim in to Paypal, keep the goods and get your money back.
> If you know someone is posting without tracking, you just put a claim in to Paypal, keep the goods and get your money back.
If you believe a claim to be fraudulent, notify the authorities. Otherwise ask the post office for compensation.
> When it comes down to Italy, I frequently ship there without tracking, never had a major problem in the 10 years I've been selling Lego online, must say I almost do not accept Paypal payments anymore from Italy, only IBAN. I honestly do not think there is a problem with Italian post, it's rather a mentality problem from some rotten apples (which you can find about everywhere) who abuse Paypal as being an 'insurance' (reason I enforce IBAN for most Italian orders).
I think that in my experience it really was the Italian post, but hard to be sure. Why only IBAN though? If a buyer reports they did not receive the order you'll need to refund, either PayPal or IBAN. Seems to me it doesn't matter.
> @Hoddie said:
> > @"White Horse Bricks" said:
> > If you know someone is posting without tracking, you just put a claim in to Paypal, keep the goods and get your money back.
>
> If you believe a claim to be fraudulent, notify the authorities. Otherwise ask the post office for compensation.
>
I don't know about elsewhere but the Dutch postal service will never pay compensation, not even when the order is tracked, so it's pointless to ask.
When someone claims something didn't arrive and there was no tracking, I think just paying up is pretty much all you can do.
> I think that in my experience it really was the Italian post, but hard to be sure. Why only IBAN though? If a buyer reports they did not receive the order you'll need to refund, either PayPal or IBAN. Seems to me it doesn't matter.
It shouldn't matter, but some sellers believe their responsibility ends the minute the package is handed over the post office, and buyers using IBAN are allowing them the luxury to say "sorry pal, not my fault." PayPal, as they know, doesn't give them that option.
> I don't know about elsewhere but the Dutch postal service will never pay compensation, not even when the order is tracked, so it's pointless to ask.
> When someone claims something didn't arrive and there was no tracking, I think just paying up is pretty much all you can do.
I find that hard to believe. They're providing a service which means a contract is in place - if they don't uphold that contract they are liable, in law, for putting you back into the position you were in prior to using their service. The only defence would be if you chose a wholly unsuitable delivery method, such as standard post for €300 worth of goods. Even 'uninsured' services should come with basic insurance - in the UK it's up to £20 I believe.
Most of the problems are firmly the fault of sellers. Using cheap shipping options to tempt buyers in, then trying to avoid legal responsibility if things go wrong. Worse still, some sellers will place the blame at the feet of the buyer for 'not asking for insurance' (more on BL than here to be fair). If sellers used appropriate shipping options, extra insurance when necessary, and a bit of common sense, most problems can be avoided before they happen.
If you want to offer the cheapest shipping options to everyone, fair enough, that's a business decision, but accept that you're presenting yourself as a tempting target to the con artists out there.
While this is more expensive for Intl shipping (I'm in the United States - sunny Southern California, as the store name implies <S>), it provides me (and I believe the buyer) a more assured business experience. I'm personally willing to forgo some business in order to evade the irritation/stress some of the back and forth with scammers and, of course, legitimate customers where that pricey uninsured item vanished in transit. Keeping my store a reasonably relaxing experience is important to me due to my health challenges.
So that was my personel decision... but for many if not most others, maximizing order volume worldwide is a totally smart(er) tradeoff!
> @Hoddie said:
>
> I find that hard to believe. They're providing a service which means a contract is in place - if they don't uphold that contract they are liable, in law, for putting you back into the position you were in prior to using their service. The only defence would be if you chose a wholly unsuitable delivery method, such as standard post for €300 worth of goods. Even 'uninsured' services should come with basic insurance - in the UK it's up to £20 I believe.
Yep. Nope. I also told them that and nope, they simply will not do it. I had to go through months of calling and complaining and eventually I got to have the money paid for shipping returned to me. But this was an exception, they said. But value of the the lost contents, nope, all at your own risk. And this was tracked shipping - without tracking, you will not get your postage money back either (because any random person in the world could call them and say "hey I lost a shipment", this is my bank account). They will just repeat to use insured shipping next time. They sure know how to make a business out of their own shortcomings.
I think the Dutch postal system's membership of the Universal Postal Union mandates that they offer insurance even for standard shipping methods. How easy it is for a consumer to make them pay out is a different matter, and you might have to resort to court action for redress, a bit over-kill for €20 or whatever the amount is. You could maybe get the national consumer rights association on board but that depends on how accessible they are (the UK's one isn't particularly consumer friendly atm).
>
> I think that in my experience it really was the Italian post, but hard to be sure. Why only IBAN though? If a buyer reports they did not receive the order you'll need to refund, either PayPal or IBAN. Seems to me it doesn't matter.
>
The difference is the interaction with the buyer when there is a problem: The communication is straight between seller and buyer, and particulary 'no' third party to 'rule' over the situation, that makes a big difference and together with the fact a 'claim' is not just a click reduces the risk of abuse.
> How is using PayPal's Buyer Protection abuse?
You are putting my words in another context. I was clearly reffering to rotten apples who abuse the buyer protection deliberately (because they know they can).
> > @"White Horse Bricks" said:
> > If you know someone is posting without tracking, you just put a claim in to Paypal, keep the goods and get your money back.
>
> If you believe a claim to be fraudulent, notify the authorities. Otherwise ask the post office for compensation.
>
Authorities won't do a thing (particulary not the ones in destination country), and it's a big hasstle as filing a complaint (and the follow ups) takes hours ;-)
Post office compensation? Most services clearly claim publicly they are not responsible on non tracked shipments... That's the irony :-)
> > @Hoddie said:
> > How is using PayPal's Buyer Protection abuse?
>
> You are putting my words in another context. I was clearly reffering to rotten apples who abuse the buyer protection deliberately (because they know they can).
It is not my intention to put words in your mouth. You said "Which doesn't exclude a potential rotten apple offcourse who will see Paypal as the 'insurance' in stead of paying for it." It is, to the knowledge of both parties, effectively insurance for the buyer, so how is using it as such wrong?
> @robernat said:
> Authorities won't do a thing (particulary not the ones in destination country), and it's a big hasstle as filing a complaint (and the follow ups) takes hours ;-)
> Post office compensation? Most services clearly claim publicly they are not responsible on non tracked shipments... That's the irony :-)
To my knowledge, postal services are not immune from consumer law or contract law. They cannot insert a general 'no compensation if the service fails' into their contract with consumers because that tramples all over established legal rights. Granted, it could be different in a B2B contract with the postal service but even then, I doubt such a general term would stand up in court. It essentially says "we can throw your parcel in the bin the second you give it to us and there's nothing you can do about it."
I know from previous experience over the years that insured items DO take weeks for USPS to investigate and process (I've seen from four and up to six), but they definitely do pay if you followed their packaging and paperwork rules. And the civil servants I've worked with have been super-nice and are on your side, since they are Federal government and customers themselves (not profit-driven).
Does InsurePost work for countries outside the US? It's an independent postal insurer... reviews seem to be quite mixed, but they do appear to pay out eventually. Rates are pretty cheap, roughly $1.05US for every $100US of insurance. They don't care where it's going - but you HAVE to very rigorously adhere to their rules (they will purportedly take any excuse to NOT pay out). Obviously they are profit-driven. :-)
About the insurance topic... right now I am watching a consumer program and it's about PostNL. A guy sold an item for about €1000, insured up to €5500, but PostNL only wanted to pay him 60%!! Because they pay the value minus the added value of the last transaction of the item, in other words the price for which the sender had purchased the item. The seller has to refund the full 100% to the buyer, but gets only 60% from PostNL even though paying plenty extra for that service! >:(
It's ridiculous, they are using an insurance rule out of its context. It is normal for business insurance to pay 60% or purchase value of the items because the items have not been sold yet and fiscally carry the purchase value. But after a sale, the value of the item has definitely increased and the only document of relevance should be that most recent sale of it, NOT the one before it... seems to me that this is just PostNL using a rule out of its context to save money dishonestly... This guy put hours of work and materials into renovating the item, I think it's disgusting this is not covered.
Now, here's where it gets interesting: The guy in the program described exactly the same procedure. They make you thankful for your contact person within PostNL to do more for you than "normal" and then they become increasingly difficult to reach. Sounds like it's a routine part of their tricks. It's close to scam..