Unfair competition from buyers who are also sellers

ady

This is a follow up to the previous discussion on
"Negative feedback option for sellers"

The situation is even worse for buyers who are also sellers.

It happened recently to me that after sending the items in good faith I was issued with a quick chargeback on PayPal and immediately with a very bad feedback from a buyer who is also a seller. The items were not sent with tracking due to the lower value, but I had proof of posting. However, PayPal does not take into account Proof of Posting from Royal Mail, UK, despite having never lost a shipping, among hundreds shipments paid through PayPal. I feel that here is a rotten rat, because there is an overlap between the buyers inventory and mine. Given that on BrickOwl many people do not give feedback, a single bad feedback counts a lot and sinked my FeedBack rate to 96%, which is rather bad.

Such people can repeat and profit from such bad behaviour several times without any consequences. Such actions should at least be indicated to other buyers or sellers who deal with them.

I have initiated an Issue Report for the transaction, but I have doubts that anything will be done. Meanwhile, PayPal will return my money to the stealing buyer, who is also keeping my items!

Teup

I'm sorry to hear about your bad experience. I know how disheartening it is when PayPal helps the scammer. I too feel like PayPal is just never on my side, and coming from a country where irreversible bank transfers are the norm, this whole circus of measures they call "protection" actually make it unsafe in my opinion.

My case could be cracked thanks to communication between members, and the admin. Perhaps (next time) you could check on the forum or with the admin if this buyer has a pattern of bad behaviour, or many accounts for example. I don't mean to burden the admin though, by telling everyone to write. But I was thinking, it could be more automated, like some button to press to request to run a buyer background check when you find yourself in trouble with them. Just to get a check if there is evidence of unusual behaviour. That could help both you and BrickOwl at large. In the event of a PayPal claim, if that check returns positive, that should make a valid point to PayPal that you are the right one in the dispute.

For example, in my case I could point PayPal to the fact the buyer used multiple PayPal accounts, which helped my case and enables PayPal to take action against them as well.

Hoddie

Start a claim with Royal Mail. If they determine the parcel was delivered, contact the fraud desk at your local police station, and warn the customer you intend to begin proceedings in the Small Claims Court if they do not repay the money, which will inevitably result in them paying costs. You can begin a claim using the Money Claim website.

Leaving retaliatory feedback doesn't get you your money back. It also doesn't repair any perceived damage you think has been done by them leaving negative feedback on your profile.

If the customer re-pays the money either because of the threat of court action or because you win the case, send evidence to BrickOwl asking them to delete the feedback. I don't know if they will, but it's worth a go. Notify PayPal also, so that any 'black mark' against your account is reviewed. Under GDPR, PayPal has a legal obligation to maintain accurate records about you (though may not be applicable if your relationship with them is a business to business.

Stores need to protect themselves better than relying on a feedback system. Review your shipping methods, purchase insurance, have a plan in place for when things go wrong. Relying on other - mostly anonymous - people to leave accurate, truthful feedback is just bad business. On BL, many buyers/sellers don't leave accurate feedback in any case because of the fear of a retaliatory feedback. Such a system is demonstrably proven to be inherently flawed.

You'd also be in a questionable position, legally, if you took a consumer's money and then decided to deny service based on their past record of purchases with other stores.

ady

Thank you for your comments, and I agree with both of you.
I will follow your advice. I hope that based on the Proof of Postage, Royal Mail will be able to confirm that they delivered the parcel.

Teup

> @Hoddie said:
> Stores need to protect themselves better than relying on a feedback system. Review your shipping methods, purchase insurance, have a plan in place for when things go wrong.

There is a wealth of information available on platforms such as BrickOwl about a person's behaviour. If everyone had to protect themselves individually, this would never come to light. To me that's like saying you should buy a better lock for your door instead of the police mapping the behaviour criminals and the statistics on crime in order to arrest and take preventive action. I think it's a real waste to throw the power we have when we unite overboard and let everyone fight for themselves. (As for the feedback issue: I will not restart the discussion but just wanted to say, you were right about users creating new accounts. I agree such a system will only work if there is a system that merges users accounts, either manually or based on addres or IP. I don't know how BL does it but it can be done here the same or better).
I understand the objections but if those are the final word on the discussion it's throwing out the baby with the bath water. I think we could think of constructive solutions. If not negative feedback, I would like to deny untracked shipping to buyers with order not received reports, for example. And have that number very visible. And that accounts are actively merged to make this number add up.

> You'd also be in a questionable position, legally, if you took a consumer's money and then decided to deny service based on their past record of purchases with other stores.

Well, PayPal can do so, when they decide in the seller's favour. So apparently that does not break a law. I agree sellers should be forgiving and not mistreat buyers based on suspicion (the scammer I had is correcting his actions and will be welcome again in my store in BrickOwl allows him), but being able to show PayPal that a buyer has a whole track record of false claims, will certainly help defend your case. If we don't make some effort to connect the dots, we risk getting alot of them.

Lawrence

The best thing to do would be to use the issue reporting system and we can then look into any allegations. Although we do appreciate constructive discussion, we prefer that it does not get circular. Fortunately it appears the package has arrived.