If (1) you're a business, and (2) your buyer was a consumer, you are required under EU consumer law (which applies to Norwegian businesses by virtue of your country's membership of the EEA), to reimburse the buyer or replace the goods. (I previously said you may be subject to EU consumer law, but I've just checked and indeed you are).
> @Hoddie said: > Edit for clarity: > > If (1) you're a business, and (2) your buyer was a consumer, you are required under EU consumer law (which applies to Norwegian businesses by virtue of your country's membership of the EEA), to reimburse the buyer or replace the goods. (I previously said you may be subject to EU consumer law, but I've just checked and indeed you are).
3. If they paid by PayPal, and you didn't post with tracking, then you will be refunding the order whether you are a business or not.
> @ovak said: > What is the responsibility of the seller when a customer claims that the package has not been received? > The package is sent without tracking.
Suppose you order some parts or sets directly from TLG’s web site, and they don’t arrive. What would you do? What would you expect TLG to do?
Sure, TLG is a big company, but I see no reason for customers to react differently when ordering from anoter rather anonymous web site.
When you sell online, you need to be able to absorb the occasional full order refund. If you can’t, you should reconsider whether (this type of) online selling is for you.
To echo qwertyboy, I totally agree. The goodwill engendered more than pays for itself. And if it's a larger order (any amount you are not willing to absorb in loss), require insurance. You can set all that automatically on here, which I have.
I'm unsure what insurance services EU postmasters offer, but here, we have additional options in the US above and beyond our postal service. I use InsurePost for smaller orders where I cannot obtain free insurance from my postal service. So for my store, I have everything set to require insurance (buyer pays) for any order $75. If they pay for Priority Mail (a faster delivery speed), the insurance is actually free up to a certain value from our postal service.
I sent a $65 order yesterday - it had some rare minifigs that I don't want to eat a loss on, so I used InsurePost. For $1.05US, I have the shipment PLUS my shipping costs fully covered. That was for my own piece of mind, the customer didn't cover that (came out of my profit for the order - but peace of mind is valuable to me <s>).
For my part, I only ship via PayPal, which offers FREE USPS tracking. Plus, you get discounted shipping rates on top of that. You can't really go wrong (to be clear, this is all United States experience - I do not know if they have a similar setup in your country).
If it has been a longer than usual delay, then yes, I'm afraid you need to provide a refund or reship the order, if you have the items in stock. You may want to confirm that it did, indeed, go to the correct address if you have any way of looking that up. I had one customer who had moved, and although he had updated his address in paypal, for some reason it served the old address to the label system. (It was a bug some time last year, hopefully now resolved). We did have a tracking number, but when he contacted the location (It was a business) they claimed to have thrown it in the trash. I provided a refund, and never did reclaim it from paypal, now that I think of it....
Another point to note is that you're in the EU you cannot state on your site that you will not reimburse customers for lost packages if they haven't used a tracked [and/or insured] shipping method. This isn't legally enforceable, and you ARE liable for the loss, however the shipping was done. There's a lot of stores here and on BL who state this.
> @TheSkirrid said: > Another point to note is that you're in the EU you cannot state on your site that you will not reimburse customers for lost packages if they haven't used a tracked [and/or insured] shipping method. This isn't legally enforceable, and you ARE liable for the loss, however the shipping was done. There's a lot of stores here and on BL who state this.
Yes, I've just placed such an order and found it a little strange to have to agree to this. In the 700+ orders I've shipped only one has never reached it's destination (I've had a few that took way longer than expected - thanks Royal Mail!), and it never once occurred to me to suggest it was the customer who should shoulder the responsibility for it not arriving! I asked the customer to wait a few more days and if it didn't show up to let me know. They did, it hadn't, so I refunded the total order. Sure it was irritating, especially as there was some value to it, but from a personal and service point of view it felt the right thing to do.
@Jay37 Even if the store asks you to agree before shipping it doesn't absolve them of their responsibility under law. You can't agree to waive a fundamental right. I had the same experience as you, one of my orders [1/2556] went missing, I gave it a few extra days and then fully refunded. I don't know how you could do otherwise with a clear conscience.
In Germany paypal will refund lost packages up to 25€ maximum ten times a year (kind of seller protection), but it is not stated in their policies officially. Therefore I only offer uninsured shipments up to that certain value.
> @Calibrick said: > To echo qwertyboy, I totally agree. The goodwill engendered more than pays for itself. And if it's a larger order (any amount you are not willing to absorb in loss), require insurance. You can set all that automatically on here, which I have. > > I'm unsure what insurance services EU postmasters offer, but here, we have additional options in the US above and beyond our postal service. I use InsurePost for smaller orders where I cannot obtain free insurance from my postal service. So for my store, I have everything set to require insurance (buyer pays) for any order $75. If they pay for Priority Mail (a faster delivery speed), the insurance is actually free up to a certain value from our postal service. > > I sent a $65 order yesterday - it had some rare minifigs that I don't want to eat a loss on, so I used InsurePost. For $1.05US, I have the shipment PLUS my shipping costs fully covered. That was for my own piece of mind, the customer didn't cover that (came out of my profit for the order - but peace of mind is valuable to me <s>). > > For my part, I only ship via PayPal, which offers FREE USPS tracking. Plus, you get discounted shipping rates on top of that. You can't really go wrong (to be clear, this is all United States experience - I do not know if they have a similar setup in your country).
Here insurance is not a separate product, and not available on all types of shipments plus it doesn't always cover the full value. But anyway - you can always create your own insurance fund, too. My smaller orders are letter mail, big ones are registered parcels, and for what's in between I have uninsured boxed shipping with an insurance fund in the handling fee that I estimated to get me break-even. Can save a bit of money compared to insurance products, as you cut out the third party. Less shipping expenses for the buyer and/or more income for you.
Here insurance would cost about 30 - 40 EUR or so extra (plus VAT) on top of maybe 40 EUR for shipping itself. So obviously not practical unless it's an enormous order. Most likely there are also restrictions on when it would apply.
I'm jealous of you guys in US when it comes to shipping...
In the Netherlands, i've to pay €11.95 for an envelope to France, <20 grams to be shipped as registered. without registered mail it only cost €1.40.
This is totally insane. I know that every business in Europe has to compansate lost orders. But when i started on Bl & Bo i really hadn't the funds to do so. Fortunally nobody had made a complain about lost shipments in my first years. Now there had been 1 or 2 and i had worked it out with the buyer.
Now i'm thinking of creating my own Insurance box. I want to ask €0.50 for every order and put this money a side for claims of orders that hasn't arrived. for large boxed order i'm still figuring out what to do, maybe i use some of the money to pay for the insured shipment. Does any one know if this is legal ?
You can charge what you want for shipping and handling, but in some countries the VAT treatment of those charges may differ depending on whether you're charging actual shipping costs or not.
What you suggest should be perfectly fine, but in all honesty that's what you're doing anyway by making a profit. Keeping part of your profit to one side in case of an unexpected cost - such as needing to refund a missing order - is simply sensible business planning.
But there might be another option - it may be possible to purchase an annual insurance policy to cover such instances. In some countries this is an additional extra to standard public liability insurance.
Shipping should always include VAT, regardless of whether you charge the actual rate or not. Shipping is a service you provide and thus VAT has to be paid. At least that's how it works in the Netherlands, I would be very surprised if it isn't a EU-wide rule.
Lots of people do this wrong which could really bite you if the tax man ever checks.
> @BrickGenie said: > Shipping should always include VAT, regardless of whether you charge the actual rate or not. Shipping is a service you provide and thus VAT has to be paid. At least that's how it works in the Netherlands, I would be very surprised if it isn't a EU-wide rule.
You sell a Lego set and charge actual shipping: VAT applies to shipping at standard rate. You sell a Lego book and charge actual shipping: VAT applies but is zero rated. You sell a Lego book and charge inflated shipping: VAT applies to shipping cost at standard rate.
In the Netherlands most regular postal services provided by PostNL are also exempted from VAT; however that only applies for the transaction I have with PostNL and not to the transaction between me and my customer. If I charge a shipping fee (lower, exact or higher doesn't matter), I have to apply VAT on top of it. So for example; I charge €1,69 shipping fee, receive €1.69 from the buyer, I pay PostNL €1,40 for a stamp and transfer €0,29 (=21% of €1.40) to the tax agency.
I think in the UK it is similar, at least according to this official looking website: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-postage-delivery-and-direct-marketing-notice-70024
Comments
If (1) you're a business, and (2) your buyer was a consumer, you are required under EU consumer law (which applies to Norwegian businesses by virtue of your country's membership of the EEA), to reimburse the buyer or replace the goods. (I previously said you may be subject to EU consumer law, but I've just checked and indeed you are).
> Edit for clarity:
>
> If (1) you're a business, and (2) your buyer was a consumer, you are required under EU consumer law (which applies to Norwegian businesses by virtue of your country's membership of the EEA), to reimburse the buyer or replace the goods. (I previously said you may be subject to EU consumer law, but I've just checked and indeed you are).
3. If they paid by PayPal, and you didn't post with tracking, then you will be refunding the order whether you are a business or not.
> What is the responsibility of the seller when a customer claims that the package has not been received?
> The package is sent without tracking.
Suppose you order some parts or sets directly from TLG’s web site, and they don’t arrive. What would you do? What would you expect TLG to do?
Sure, TLG is a big company, but I see no reason for customers to react differently when ordering from anoter rather anonymous web site.
When you sell online, you need to be able to absorb the occasional full order refund. If you can’t, you should reconsider whether (this type of) online selling is for you.
Niek.
I'm unsure what insurance services EU postmasters offer, but here, we have additional options in the US above and beyond our postal service. I use InsurePost for smaller orders where I cannot obtain free insurance from my postal service. So for my store, I have everything set to require insurance (buyer pays) for any order $75. If they pay for Priority Mail (a faster delivery speed), the insurance is actually free up to a certain value from our postal service.
I sent a $65 order yesterday - it had some rare minifigs that I don't want to eat a loss on, so I used InsurePost. For $1.05US, I have the shipment PLUS my shipping costs fully covered. That was for my own piece of mind, the customer didn't cover that (came out of my profit for the order - but peace of mind is valuable to me <s>).
For my part, I only ship via PayPal, which offers FREE USPS tracking. Plus, you get discounted shipping rates on top of that. You can't really go wrong (to be clear, this is all United States experience - I do not know if they have a similar setup in your country).
I had one customer who had moved, and although he had updated his address in paypal, for some reason it served the old address to the label system. (It was a bug some time last year, hopefully now resolved). We did have a tracking number, but when he contacted the location (It was a business) they claimed to have thrown it in the trash. I provided a refund, and never did reclaim it from paypal, now that I think of it....
> Another point to note is that you're in the EU you cannot state on your site that you will not reimburse customers for lost packages if they haven't used a tracked [and/or insured] shipping method. This isn't legally enforceable, and you ARE liable for the loss, however the shipping was done. There's a lot of stores here and on BL who state this.
Yes, I've just placed such an order and found it a little strange to have to agree to this. In the 700+ orders I've shipped only one has never reached it's destination (I've had a few that took way longer than expected - thanks Royal Mail!), and it never once occurred to me to suggest it was the customer who should shoulder the responsibility for it not arriving! I asked the customer to wait a few more days and if it didn't show up to let me know. They did, it hadn't, so I refunded the total order. Sure it was irritating, especially as there was some value to it, but from a personal and service point of view it felt the right thing to do.
> To echo qwertyboy, I totally agree. The goodwill engendered more than pays for itself. And if it's a larger order (any amount you are not willing to absorb in loss), require insurance. You can set all that automatically on here, which I have.
>
> I'm unsure what insurance services EU postmasters offer, but here, we have additional options in the US above and beyond our postal service. I use InsurePost for smaller orders where I cannot obtain free insurance from my postal service. So for my store, I have everything set to require insurance (buyer pays) for any order $75. If they pay for Priority Mail (a faster delivery speed), the insurance is actually free up to a certain value from our postal service.
>
> I sent a $65 order yesterday - it had some rare minifigs that I don't want to eat a loss on, so I used InsurePost. For $1.05US, I have the shipment PLUS my shipping costs fully covered. That was for my own piece of mind, the customer didn't cover that (came out of my profit for the order - but peace of mind is valuable to me <s>).
>
> For my part, I only ship via PayPal, which offers FREE USPS tracking. Plus, you get discounted shipping rates on top of that. You can't really go wrong (to be clear, this is all United States experience - I do not know if they have a similar setup in your country).
Here insurance is not a separate product, and not available on all types of shipments plus it doesn't always cover the full value. But anyway - you can always create your own insurance fund, too. My smaller orders are letter mail, big ones are registered parcels, and for what's in between I have uninsured boxed shipping with an insurance fund in the handling fee that I estimated to get me break-even. Can save a bit of money compared to insurance products, as you cut out the third party. Less shipping expenses for the buyer and/or more income for you.
I'm jealous of you guys in US when it comes to shipping...
This is totally insane. I know that every business in Europe has to compansate lost orders. But when i started on Bl & Bo i really hadn't the funds to do so. Fortunally nobody had made a complain about lost shipments in my first years. Now there had been 1 or 2 and i had worked it out with the buyer.
Now i'm thinking of creating my own Insurance box. I want to ask €0.50 for every order and put this money a side for claims of orders that hasn't arrived. for large boxed order i'm still figuring out what to do, maybe i use some of the money to pay for the insured shipment. Does any one know if this is legal ?
What you suggest should be perfectly fine, but in all honesty that's what you're doing anyway by making a profit. Keeping part of your profit to one side in case of an unexpected cost - such as needing to refund a missing order - is simply sensible business planning.
But there might be another option - it may be possible to purchase an annual insurance policy to cover such instances. In some countries this is an additional extra to standard public liability insurance.
Lots of people do this wrong which could really bite you if the tax man ever checks.
> Shipping should always include VAT, regardless of whether you charge the actual rate or not. Shipping is a service you provide and thus VAT has to be paid. At least that's how it works in the Netherlands, I would be very surprised if it isn't a EU-wide rule.
It certainly does depend on the country.
You sell a Lego set and charge actual shipping: VAT applies to shipping at standard rate.
You sell a Lego book and charge actual shipping: VAT applies but is zero rated.
You sell a Lego book and charge inflated shipping: VAT applies to shipping cost at standard rate.
https://www.royalmail.com/information-vat-and-postal-services/
So for example; I charge €1,69 shipping fee, receive €1.69 from the buyer, I pay PostNL €1,40 for a stamp and transfer €0,29 (=21% of €1.40) to the tax agency.
I think in the UK it is similar, at least according to this official looking website: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-on-postage-delivery-and-direct-marketing-notice-70024