Hi. Got my first complaint of parcel not arriving to customer today. 3 weeks gone and it had not arrived. Customer wants refund for bricks and postage. Is that customsry?
Where was the shipment to? In my opinion: 3 weeks for an international shipment is a long time, but not long enough to talk about refunding yet... Shipments to some countries in the world take that long every single time.
i had a lot of international customers asking me about their parcels, even when they were shipped for about 4-7 days. then USPS never scanned in the destination country even with Delivery Confirmation Service etc. most of them wanted to be refunded right away. I just stopped selling internationally (except Canada) and i have a lot less headache and explaining to do :-)
@Lawrence It is a requirement in the EU for B2B or B2C sellers (aka professional sellers), not for private sellers (C2C, or consumer to consumer sellers), as the transaction is strickly 'private', even if a proffesional buys from a private person, it is still a private transaction, as the seller cannot offer a bill or VAT deduction (if applied). Unfortunatly many buyers do not seem to know the difference and request the same services from all sellers, and sites do not offer a clear indication of this either (the 'type' of seller should IMO be displayed on storefronts and during checkouts). It might be good in the long run to 'add' this on BO. The additional problem is that buyers here on BO don't actually have to read/accept anything when they place order, as there are no storeterms pages showed during checkout (another requirement btw, particulary in Germany, and the rest of EU will follow). For buyers, right now, every seller on BO is the same, while both types of sellers exist: the professional sellers and the hobbiest (private) sellers, but both don't need to offer the same kind of services. 'returns' is another one of those services, proffesional sellers in EU must offer this, private sellers do not... So these kind of details need to be in storeterms a buyer needs to 'accept' when checking out, but such doesn't happen on BO...
You might wanna take that in consideration for the further development of Brickowl ;-)
I'm not convinced professional sellers should give full refunds for lost orders.. (not talking legally but morally) After all it's a third party screwing things up for a transaction that involves two parties equally. And I mean, if one party be considered trustworthy, it's usually the seller, given their usual track record of succesful transactions.
What I always do is ask the buyer how they like to solve it. I sometimes resend part of the order, for example. Or we split the damage. If the buyer considers a full refund to be the only fair solution, then I give a full refund without discussion. But as a buyer I wouldn't ask this from a seller, I personally think splitting is fair.
Also, I think it's good to wait a while before taking any action, at least 3x the time it usually takes for the order to arrive. Because once something is out of the ordinary, it really might get any random amount of delay. And also if an order is being checked by customs, or the package is damaged and the postal service repacks it, or if the order is returned to you for some reason, then it will take extra time before it resurfaces.
It might not be the seller's fault - though you could argue they selected the shipping agent - but two contracts exist and both have failed, neither of them through any fault of the buyer. The shipping agent broke the contract with the seller, and the seller - in turn - broke the contract with the buyer.
The seller can seek recompense from the agent even if they didn't pay for insurance, and it's only right that the buyer can seek recompense from the seller. Waiting the statutory period for the agent to accept the parcel is lost before refunding is in my opinion a reasonable request, though almost all retailers will refund or replace much earlier than that to ensure no loss of goodwill.
It might not be the seller's fault - though you could argue they selected the shipping agent - but two contracts exist and both have failed, neither of them through any fault of the buyer. The shipping agent broke the contract with the seller, and the seller - in turn - broke the contract with the buyer.
The seller can seek recompense from the agent even if they didn't pay for insurance, and it's only right that the buyer can seek recompense from the seller. Waiting the statutory period for the agent to accept the parcel is lost before refunding is in my opinion a reasonable request, though almost all retailers will refund or replace much earlier than that to ensure no loss of goodwill.
Yeah, that's one (fairly logical) way to look at it, too, and I'm aware that's the mainstream way. But you could argue this is different because we're not talking about webstores who have a contract with a logistics company - in which case that company will have stakes involved and has to answer to the webshop when things go wrong. Rather, we're talking about someone buying Lego from someone who sends it by the national mail on their behalf... you could argue that is a different situation. (Although it's pointless to argue since the law is the law, but anyway :P ) The issue of insurance again makes this all a bit weird. In the Lego selling world it's typically something we leave to the buyer to decide, which is a bit odd if it's the seller's risk. And even if the seller is the one who decides, then it's still weird, because he decides this with the buyer's money. So either someone decides for someone else's risk, or someone decides with someone else's money.. :P
The issue of insurance again makes this all a bit weird. In the Lego selling world it's typically something we leave to the buyer to decide, which is a bit odd if it's the seller's risk. And even if the seller is the one who decides, then it's still weird, because he decides this with the buyer's money. So either someone decides for someone else's risk, or someone decides with someone else's money.. :P
That's not the way it should work (nor is it how it actually works when I am the seller.
I do not explicitly offer insurance. Shipping cost is what it is. If the shipping does not include tracking or insurance normally, then I decide for myself if I want to insure it against loss. This would be *my* loss, not the buyer's. If it's like a $400 order, I am almost certainly going to insure it. This is a cost that I bear, which is not passed on to the buyer, because they aren't the ones benefiting from it.
But you could argue this is different because we're not talking about webstores who have a contract with a logistics company
Not really. Putting a stamp on a package and then putting it into a post box invokes a contract - it exists even though you haven't signed anything. Whether you buy your stamps at a post office or a shop, or print them using an online method, there are T&Cs that form the basis of a contract and your purchase of the stamp is your acceptance of that contract.
Even the smallest value stamp usually comes with insurance and the limits are specified within the T&Cs. Adding insurance on top is if you want to pay for more protection.
The issue of insurance again makes this all a bit weird.
It's only weird because it has become the norm within this little community to make insurance an optional extra that buyers must pay for. It's a little silly that any buyer has ever paid for it - they're already protected by law whether they're buying from a private individual or a business. The only difference is how to assert their rights if/when things go wrong.
Well as a buyer its awful to buy something and wait a month with no results. Yes you should get a refund. I had placed two orders within one day of each other and the second one shows up but not the first. Here it is October with still no results. The person commenting on here gave me my refund. But yet I still haven't been able to find the item I need and sorely disappointed. Very strange to get my second order before the first. Don't know if they received it back or what.
I also don't agree with that "usually the seller is trustworthy" comment. That's messy. My thing is if I placed two orders within the same amount of time because I realize I needed another of the same item why didn't it all go out at once. That was the one thing after not receiving my items that made me feel leary. Then the store closes, it was then that I asked for my refund.
But you could argue this is different because we're not talking about webstores who have a contract with a logistics company
Not really. Putting a stamp on a package and then putting it into a post box invokes a contract - it exists even though you haven't signed anything. Whether you buy your stamps at a post office or a shop, or print them using an online method, there are T&Cs that form the basis of a contract and your purchase of the stamp is your acceptance of that contract.
What I meant is that there is no mutual business relationship, let alone face to face interaction, like there is in all other companies. So if something goes wrong, it has absolutely no repercussions unless perhaps you have alot of followers on Twitter or something like that...
The issue of insurance again makes this all a bit weird.
It's only weird because it has become the norm within this little community to make insurance an optional extra that buyers must pay for.
Right now I'm having a large order on BL and invoiced it with insurance but the buyer really thinks it's too expensive. Well, I won't go and force him then, it seems strange to me to force a decision with someone else's money.
My thing is if I placed two orders within the same amount of time because I realize I needed another of the same item why didn't it all go out at once.
This point, I don't really get why that would be strange... To me, it would be very strange if both orders didn't arrive. Things can get lost in the mail, the chance is super small, but it is possible. For two shipments to get lost would be beyond coincidence for sure.
Right now I'm having a large order on BL and invoiced it with insurance but the buyer really thinks it's too expensive. Well, I won't go and force him then, it seems strange to me to force a decision with someone else's money.
Indeed, but you're basically saying "you can pay this much and you're insured" or "this much and you take a risk" - a risk that the law (in the EU at least) says is the seller's risk. Insurance is a business cost and you're under-pricing your items if you're not factoring it in and are instead offering it as a customer optional extra.
For what it's worth, I truly appreciate sellers offering the option of uninsured shipping.
I have placed over 300 orders for Lego parts, and not a single one went missing. I would rather risk an order being lost, one day, than having had to pay extra for insurance on all these 300 orders.
Of course, I also appreciate being able to choose paying for insurance when I prefer to do so.
I know you're in Canada Stragus and perhaps it's different there, but EU consumer law protects the buyer regardless. In fact, non-EU sellers shipping into the EU are probably bound by the same laws, though enforcement might be a tad difficult. Dealing with lost parcels is a cost of being in business. You don't get Amazon or any other retailer offering two shipping costs, one with insurance and one where you take the risk!
You don't get Amazon or any other retailer offering two shipping costs, one with insurance and one where you take the risk!
Exactly. If I buy an USB/audio/whatever cable from a Canadian seller on Amazon, I'll be charged $7+ in shipping so that they get tracking. A BrickOwl seller would just put a $1.37 (1.80 CAD) stamp on it, and I appreciate that.
I fully understand that the law protects the customer, and if not, then Paypal does. But I still really like being able to choose "I trust this seller" and save a few bucks.
I understand the desire, of course I do, but those sellers who do it and then say "well, you didn't pay for insurance" when things go wrong, are carving out a position that more reputable sellers find hard to compete with. A customer can waive their consumer rights by choosing not to ask for a refund, but a company cannot make that a condition of offering low postal rates. If a package doesn't turn up, regardless of the unwritten and implied contract, a consumer is perfectly entitled to ask for a refund.
If you've received 300 successful orders, none of them lost in post, imagine all of those came from the same seller. If the 301st went missing the seller should be in a secure enough financial position to refund you in full, irrespective of whether or not they or you paid for insurance. If, over 300 orders, they haven't made enough profit to cover the 301st should something go wrong, then they shouldn't be in business. The cost of insurance - whether by paying the carrier an extra fee or otherwise stumping up the cash when things go wrong - is a cost of being in business, and those who sidestep their obligations are operating from an unfair (and in the EU, illegal) position.
The way I see it, by opting out of insurance, the customer agrees not to enforce his legal rights to a refund in the (very) unlikely event that the order would be lost. He is still legally entitled to ask for a refund if he wishes to do so, in breach of this informal agreement.
Of course, customers in breach of this informal agreement could be prevented to select non-insured shipping methods in the future, or these methods might only be available to "trusted" customers with feedback-(100*ONR) > 10 for example, or each seller could set their criteria for each shipping method to be available. But this is overkill, overcomplicated and would lead to a ton of new issues.
if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. I think this informal agreement is working well in the vast majority of cases...
Teup said: This point, I don't really get why that would be strange... To me, it would be very strange if both orders didn't arrive. Things can get lost in the mail, the chance is super small, but it is possible. For two shipments to get lost would be beyond coincidence for sure.
It is strange because that means you shipped out two packages to me on the same day when they could have been combined into one package. It is strange that I got my second package first and have not received the first ever. I've been a buyer for years and never had this problem, yet you claim the same but only 127 sells were on your site at the time of my purchase. I would have waited longer but I saw that your store closed down as I stated earlier. As for waiting time here it is Oct and no items. So how long should someone wait. To insinuate that the seller is the most trustworthy all the time is not a fair claim when this situation right here smells shady.
A feedback of 127 means around 400 orders as most satisfied customers don't ever leave feedback. And @Teup has sent over 3000 orders if you add up his activity on all websites.
It's very unfortunate that a package would be delayed (or perhaps even lost), but I believe Teup's integrity should not be in doubt.
Well mine shouldn't either!!! And as far as business is concerned the customer is always right. I guess me getting my money back shows that. As far as integrity he shouldn't have questioned mine either. But I'm sure after stating what happened anyone can see the question I had pertaining to my situation. And satisfied customers do leave a positive feedback. I've been buying since forever and never had this situation. But I assure you that I won't have to worry about it again from either of you. Case closed!!!
In all fairness chelle2nines, sellers do have to put up with fraudulent buyers, just as buyers have to put up with dodgy sellers. It's easy for both parties to jump to the wrong conclusion when something goes astray and in the end it's always one person's word against another. It would normally end in a standoff but that's where consumer law comes into play - the buyer must be refunded and it's up to the seller to determine how they deal with these occasional expenses.
@chelle2nines I had a package ship out of here in July and it was returned to me yesterday. Almost 3 months this package was "off the grid". Packages do get lost... I have no idea where this one was for this long but it's back to me now!
Hoddie and Brickstackers, yes I do understand what you're saying it does go both ways, and it was very frustrating that order I wanted. I do believe they get lost but I was so nerved by the whole thing.
@chelle2nines I understand it's frustrating... but if I had to guess, I would say your order will arrive eventually.
I have placed about 300 orders and shipped about 1400 myself (on various websites). So far, I have never seen a package disappear, as a customer or as a seller... but I certainly have seen orders take 1-2 months to reach their destination! It's rare, but it happens.
The Royal Mail, at its worst, admitted to failing to deliver 1 in every 1,000 letters and packages. Some had illegible addresses, some had unknown addresses but most were simply lost (stolen!). Things are better now but I imagine millions of items of post still goes undelivered in the UK every year.
I've had about 5 out of 1800 go missing. 1 to the USA (@Brickstackers did you ever get your money back from that customer?) The rest were UK. 1 was Fraud and another turned up weeks later. I've posted all over the world. Just a few of the countries. New Zealand, Poland, Romania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hong Kong, China, Singapore. I was expecting more to go missing when I first started.
Sigh, it's February and still never received the package. Yet I ordered from another person and there is tracking available. It was ordered the 3 Feb, shipped out the 4 Feb, got to NY 17 Feb. It's 20 Feb today and it says it's on its way to destination, nothing more.
if i post abroad i tell sellers once the item is posted (especially italy) that i will keep proof of postage and that if parcel goes missing i will send a copy of the reciept and they can chase up the parcel from there end
Comments
Shipments to some countries in the world take that long every single time.
It is a requirement in the EU for B2B or B2C sellers (aka professional sellers), not for private sellers (C2C, or consumer to consumer sellers), as the transaction is strickly 'private', even if a proffesional buys from a private person, it is still a private transaction, as the seller cannot offer a bill or VAT deduction (if applied). Unfortunatly many buyers do not seem to know the difference and request the same services from all sellers, and sites do not offer a clear indication of this either (the 'type' of seller should IMO be displayed on storefronts and during checkouts). It might be good in the long run to 'add' this on BO. The additional problem is that buyers here on BO don't actually have to read/accept anything when they place order, as there are no storeterms pages showed during checkout (another requirement btw, particulary in Germany, and the rest of EU will follow).
For buyers, right now, every seller on BO is the same, while both types of sellers exist: the professional sellers and the hobbiest (private) sellers, but both don't need to offer the same kind of services. 'returns' is another one of those services, proffesional sellers in EU must offer this, private sellers do not... So these kind of details need to be in storeterms a buyer needs to 'accept' when checking out, but such doesn't happen on BO...
You might wanna take that in consideration for the further development of Brickowl ;-)
After all it's a third party screwing things up for a transaction that involves two parties equally. And I mean, if one party be considered trustworthy, it's usually the seller, given their usual track record of succesful transactions.
What I always do is ask the buyer how they like to solve it. I sometimes resend part of the order, for example. Or we split the damage. If the buyer considers a full refund to be the only fair solution, then I give a full refund without discussion. But as a buyer I wouldn't ask this from a seller, I personally think splitting is fair.
Also, I think it's good to wait a while before taking any action, at least 3x the time it usually takes for the order to arrive. Because once something is out of the ordinary, it really might get any random amount of delay. And also if an order is being checked by customs, or the package is damaged and the postal service repacks it, or if the order is returned to you for some reason, then it will take extra time before it resurfaces.
The seller can seek recompense from the agent even if they didn't pay for insurance, and it's only right that the buyer can seek recompense from the seller. Waiting the statutory period for the agent to accept the parcel is lost before refunding is in my opinion a reasonable request, though almost all retailers will refund or replace much earlier than that to ensure no loss of goodwill.
The issue of insurance again makes this all a bit weird. In the Lego selling world it's typically something we leave to the buyer to decide, which is a bit odd if it's the seller's risk. And even if the seller is the one who decides, then it's still weird, because he decides this with the buyer's money. So either someone decides for someone else's risk, or someone decides with someone else's money.. :P
I do not explicitly offer insurance. Shipping cost is what it is. If the shipping does not include tracking or insurance normally, then I decide for myself if I want to insure it against loss. This would be *my* loss, not the buyer's. If it's like a $400 order, I am almost certainly going to insure it. This is a cost that I bear, which is not passed on to the buyer, because they aren't the ones benefiting from it.
--
Marc.
Even the smallest value stamp usually comes with insurance and the limits are specified within the T&Cs. Adding insurance on top is if you want to pay for more protection. It's only weird because it has become the norm within this little community to make insurance an optional extra that buyers must pay for. It's a little silly that any buyer has ever paid for it - they're already protected by law whether they're buying from a private individual or a business. The only difference is how to assert their rights if/when things go wrong.
I have placed over 300 orders for Lego parts, and not a single one went missing. I would rather risk an order being lost, one day, than having had to pay extra for insurance on all these 300 orders.
Of course, I also appreciate being able to choose paying for insurance when I prefer to do so.
I fully understand that the law protects the customer, and if not, then Paypal does. But I still really like being able to choose "I trust this seller" and save a few bucks.
If you've received 300 successful orders, none of them lost in post, imagine all of those came from the same seller. If the 301st went missing the seller should be in a secure enough financial position to refund you in full, irrespective of whether or not they or you paid for insurance. If, over 300 orders, they haven't made enough profit to cover the 301st should something go wrong, then they shouldn't be in business. The cost of insurance - whether by paying the carrier an extra fee or otherwise stumping up the cash when things go wrong - is a cost of being in business, and those who sidestep their obligations are operating from an unfair (and in the EU, illegal) position.
The way I see it, by opting out of insurance, the customer agrees not to enforce his legal rights to a refund in the (very) unlikely event that the order would be lost. He is still legally entitled to ask for a refund if he wishes to do so, in breach of this informal agreement.
Of course, customers in breach of this informal agreement could be prevented to select non-insured shipping methods in the future, or these methods might only be available to "trusted" customers with feedback-(100*ONR) > 10 for example, or each seller could set their criteria for each shipping method to be available. But this is overkill, overcomplicated and would lead to a ton of new issues.
if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.
This point, I don't really get why that would be strange... To me, it would be very strange if both orders didn't arrive. Things can get lost in the mail, the chance is super small, but it is possible. For two shipments to get lost would be beyond coincidence for sure.
It is strange because that means you shipped out two packages to me on the same day when they could have been combined into one package. It is strange that I got my second package first and have not received the first ever. I've been a buyer for years and never had this problem, yet you claim the same but only 127 sells were on your site at the time of my purchase. I would have waited longer but I saw that your store closed down as I stated earlier. As for waiting time here it is Oct and no items. So how long should someone wait. To insinuate that the seller is the most trustworthy all the time is not a fair claim when this situation right here smells shady.
It's very unfortunate that a package would be delayed (or perhaps even lost), but I believe Teup's integrity should not be in doubt.
I have placed about 300 orders and shipped about 1400 myself (on various websites). So far, I have never seen a package disappear, as a customer or as a seller... but I certainly have seen orders take 1-2 months to reach their destination! It's rare, but it happens.
The rest were UK. 1 was Fraud and another turned up weeks later.
I've posted all over the world. Just a few of the countries. New Zealand, Poland, Romania, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hong Kong, China, Singapore.
I was expecting more to go missing when I first started.