Something wrong with my shop?

Teup

I've had a steady 2-or-so orders a day for weeks, but for the last 10 days I haven't had a single order. This is strongly statistically significant, is there a problem? SDid I accidentally mess up a setting in my store or is there something wrong with Brickowl? It's very curious. Thanks!

BrickItOn

Your store settings: Dispatches In 6-14 Days. Your parts are no longer found by customers, check the latest site update:

2nd Feb - If your store dispatch time is set to 6 to 14 days, your store items will no longer show up in the catalogue buy tab.

Nice update

Teup

Wow! That's quite a serious change right there! Thanks so much for pointing that out, explains everything

Admin, are you 100% sure this is a good update? I understand, but it is quite drastic. And after all it's the buyer's responsability to check it. About 95% of my customers are completely fine with me taking 14 days, and the 5% that asks what's up quickly realise they should've paid attention and agree that it is alright. So far this update has caused about 20 deals to NOT have been made that would have made both me and the customers happy.

Maybe a filter that the buyer can set would be nice, but to filter out ALL shops with that dispatch time is pretty heavy.

For me it's just a temporary situation though, going back to normal dispatch time when I have the time again, but anyway

Lawrence

The aim was to level the playing field in the catalogue, there is a limit to how much information can be shown in the catalogue listings, and a dispatch time of two weeks is a severely different offering, to another store, that might have the part at the same price, and will ship it in two days. There are other reasons behind the change, but this is the core reason. I hope you can understand the situation.

Teup

The aim was to level the playing field in the catalogue, there is a limit to how much information can be shown in the catalogue listings, and a dispatch time of two weeks is a severely different offering, to another store, that might have the part at the same price, and will ship it in two days. There are other reasons behind the change, but this is the core reason. I hope you can understand the situation.

Thanks, well, now we know it causes such a huge drop in orders, so I hope you'll reconsider at some point. These are pretty much missed opportunities, both buyer and seller would've been quite happy about these transactions. Since the drop in orders is pretty much 100% (I had noooo clue what was going on), I think a warning to sellers when choosing this dispatch time setting is in order, if not removal of the setting entirely.

I trust your evaluation though, I guess for me it means I'll just have to change the setting and be a bit quicker from now on

goshe7

Thanks for the info and forum post; I made the same observation and was wondering what was causing this effect.

Stragus

I really don't think that was a good change, any informed seller will now avoid setting the 6-14 days bracket. And that leaves us with just two options: 1-2 days or 2-5 days. Could we perhaps have a few intermediary steps?...

steendorp

I think I don't like this change either. I do not really follow, why this is done. Maybe a lack in my English. Lawrence mentioned it: "Level the playing field in the catalogue". This is where my understanding drops.
I think like Stragus, that people do not choose the option shipping within 6-14 days anymore. So it's a matter of time that the option ships within 2-5 days is excluded as well.

Hopefully this exclusion will be undone and other options to solve an apparent problem will be considered. I do not understand which problem is solved with this exclusion.

Frank

goshe7

I think the change makes sense. Waiting two weeks between receipt of payment and shipping is well beyond reasonable expectations for any general e-commerce site these days. As a buyer, I would be rather disappointed if I suffered a two week wait, even if it was clearly disclosed.

In general, price, quality, & time are the key aspects of a deliverable. The change just helped make "time" have some placement in the search results as price and quality already do.

I'm probably in the minority, but I would support the idea of further differentiation for "premium" shipping speed. But for that to hold true, and to ensure the present change makes sense, I would like to have confidence that there is some means of monitoring and enforcing the promised shipping timeframe so that stores don't just promise the best times for favorable results and then fail to deliver.

robernat

@goshe7
slow shipping doesn't stand for fail to deliver, the latter is really when a seller doesn't ship and I'm sure buyers will take the needed steps to deal with that. Slow shipping can be for a reason, as long as the buyer is well informed and comfortable with it, I see no issues. Surpassing the pre-setted shipping time could be dealt with indeed: 1. the seller could be notified by the site by having pop-ups 2. Admin could generate a mailing to himself to catch sellers who are always in excess (or could if time exceeds 50% compared to the sellers setting)
But in both cases someone is gonna be annoyed...

Teup

Nice posts, I guess we can all agree that the way it is right now isn't really satisfying. I like the idea of more intermediary steps. At any rate, as it stands right now, the 6-14 days option basically means "I want to not get any orders at all without understanding why" and that is not very useful :P I think it should either have a warning, or be removed, or turned back the way it was..

I understand that delivery time is a factor, and that buyers would like that factor to be somehow represented in the shopping options that the site is offering them, but the rigorous silent cut off for the 6-14 days category that we have right now isn't very useful to anyone. Maybe faster shipping up on top, a slider to filter max acceptable delivery time, something like that, something more gradual and better communicated.

Lawrence said that it was just a practical intervention, I don't really understand the practical ramifications but I hope something can change to make it more logical/fair/clear.

Hoddie

I think it's pretty good that BrickOwl is expecting a bare minimum standard from sellers. This can only be a good thing, putting BO out there as the one Lego marketplace where the interests of buyers are given greater importance than the interests of sellers. Sure, BO doesn't work without sellers but as @goshe7 points out, a two-week lead time is archaic in today's e-retail environment.

Stragus

Let's not forget that 6-14 days is *not* two weeks. It can also be just 6 days!

As a buyer, if that means I'm getting a better deal, I would certainly want to look into sellers taking 6 days to ship while browsing the catalog! I generally place my orders 1-2 months before I need the parts anyway. Not everybody is in a rush, these sellers should not just disappear from catalog searches!

pumbaugh

Remember this site tends to bring a newer less experienced LEGO buyer imo. Having some minimum standards is important. I am sure a new buyer who places an order may not notice the processing time listed on each store. I would be disappointed if I was new and did not notice the shipping timeframe and had no choice but to wait up to 2 weeks. Also, with credit cards being integrated here, they need to be dispatched in a reasonable amount of time or the authorization expires, creating potential payment issues after the order has been placed. It could also be used as a tool for people not actually having the stock on hand, but perhaps say listing available PAB parts from their local LEGO Pab wall and filling the orders next time the run by the store. I can think of more ways to abuse the system. I have a theory on most things like this.....I do not think Lawrence would come up with this plan if there was not a reason or problem behind it. Generally when I read or hear about a rule I think does not make sense, I immediately wonder what happened to make someone make/enforce this new policy I have no problem with it. Perhaps it is as simple as he wants speed of service to play a role at BrickOwl.

robernat

As stated in another thread regarding this, my personal recommendation would to split the 6-14 days into 6-10 and 11-14, and apply the current setting for the above 10 days if it helps Admin to reduce the visible data. Allthough I really wonder what the issue in regards to that is, after all, in the long run there will be more and more sellers, and if they are all in the 2-5 days range, what will be the next step: marking less visible the sellers who are in the 2-5 days range? Or skip the ones with highest prices? Doesn't sound pratical. If it's a resource problem, then resources should be extended, if for other reasons (sellers stalling on orders) then it should be dealt with by using other means.

Stragus

I strongly believe it would be preferable to clearly present the information to the buyer rather than hide these sellers entirely. There could be a note "Warning: 6-14 days shipping delay" while listing such sellers in the catalog. There could be a warning banner displayed in the cart or even on top of every page in the seller's store.

In the end, let the buyer take the final decision. The current system only means that no informed seller will ever select a shipping delay of 6-14 days. Is that an improvement?

robernat

Well, it might not be an improvement, but we also do not know all reasons Admin has for such ;-)
Maybe he gets warnings when sellers are to much 'overdue' on their settings, so people trying to fool the system might get a more official warnings from him. Technicly generating such isn't that hard I suppose.

Teup

I strongly believe it would be preferable to clearly present the information to the buyer rather than hide these sellers entirely. There could be a note "Warning: 6-14 days shipping delay" while listing such sellers in the catalog.

Remember this site tends to bring a newer less experienced LEGO buyer imo. Having some minimum standards is important. I am sure a new buyer who places an order may not notice the processing time listed on each store.

Actually, I shared your concern but it turns out that buyers tend to be well aware of the shipping window. I get questions about many things, but very rarely about shipping when I took 2 weeks (and I did that a lot lately). Whenever people do write messages to ask things they sometimes literally note "oh by the way I did see that you have 6-14 days shipping and that is alright". It's quite surprising, but unlike other things like feedback posting and updating payment status, buyers are pretty good with this. (An extra warning like Stragus suggested couldn't hurt, though.)

I think it's pretty good that BrickOwl is expecting a bare minimum standard from sellers. This can only be a good thing, putting BO out there as the one Lego marketplace where the interests of buyers are given greater importance than the interests of sellers. Sure, BO doesn't work without sellers but as @goshe7 points out, a two-week lead time is archaic in today's e-retail environment.

A hierarchy can certainly be made, but ruling out the 6-14 day shippers is a loss. Like I said over the last 2 weeks I've missed out on many orders that would have made the customers perfectly happy. From a service point of view it's better to have a multitude of part quantities and prices at different dispatch times on offer than to just lose part of it. If the 6-14 day option wasn't there I would have closed my store entirely, like I did on Bricklink, and I don't think that's a win for anyone.

DadsAfol

Sorry guys, but I'm with @goshe7 on this. if it's going to take a week or more to ship, you shouldn't be selling. Put your store on vacation and catch up on orders. If Saturdays are the only day you can pay attention to your store, close your store Sunday - Thursday and only take orders on Friday & Saturday. I was once a hobby seller too, so this isn't about professional vs hobby sellers. This is about whether you as a hobby seller are committed to support the brick resale community.

robernat

@DadsAFOL
I agree with your sayings, but only partially as I can fully understand at some point one can be flooded with orders in an unexpected way (had that the whole month of januari). In the past when such happend, I would simply close my shop (we're talking BL here) and catch up. On BO this is different IMHO, as people have carts that stay around for weeks (unlike BL). Now imagine you close on sunday, a buyer has been in your store several times over the past few weeks, builded up a cart, then on that same sunday decides to make a final run in your store and checkout and is confronted with: Sorry, we are currently not taking any orders. Bummer. From the buyers point of view that is far less 'professional' then having to wait a couple of days extra... Remember also that when a store is closed on BL, nothing is visible to any potential buyer, on BO that's not the case, if a store is closed, you can still see the things that are listed...
So changing timeframes is far more conveniant then simply closing a shop...

BrickItOn

if it's going to take a week or more to ship, you shouldn't be selling.

I just don't understand this point. If a buyer is happy to wait a couple of extra days (what are we talking about anyway, shipping itself may take more than 4 weeks when unlucky), and he KNOWS this, why should that be a problem? Sometimes I need things fast, and sometimes I don't need an order for weeks. So I look at the timeframe stated in the shop, or ask a seller what expected shipment date is. It is then MY decision to make the order or not. Now it is BO decision, as this topics proves)

Just because some people want orders fast, doesn't mean they ALL do.

Hiding shops that might just have what a buyer needs might even mean they go looking at other places to buy, with 1 BO user lost as a result

misbi

If an unscrupulous seller were taking 10-14 days to ship, that would provide an adequate window to source inventory after an order is received! Not that I'm suggesting that's ever happened, just sayin'

pmitch

Even with novice buyers, the rule that the best decision can be made with the most complete data still holds. The trick is to provide TRUE, timely data. Providing (and filtering) the seller-supplied service terms is making the assumption that this is TRUE and timely. As noted in another thread, showing the median actual times from payment to shipment seems to be the closest to TRUE data that is available.

The TIMELY issue is trickier. A long standing store might have GREAT stats, but have a bad period. If the buyer isn't told this (by the store owner), the median could be too optimistic. Here, there could be some warning if the last month (or some determined time interval) was significantly different from the median. For example, if the median time (since store opening) is 3 days and during the last month it is 5 days, this variance could be flagged to the buyer.

Again, full information empowers the strongest AND weakest consumers. BO's goal should be to provide TRUE and TIMELY data along with an accessible format (and pop-up explanations). This full transparency not only aids the consumers but also provides sellers with market information to fine-tune their own operations. More information yields better consumer decisions and BETTER performing sellers. All good things.

bluedragon

^noteworthy insight :-)

Stragus

I fully agree with providing the information to the buyer, not hiding anything from them (including entire stores). The median is certainly a more meaningful measure than the average.

If that information were to become visible, shipping delays should reflect the current situation, therefore only the delay for orders from the past 1-2 weeks.

pmitch

Good point. Such a dramatic change would need a starting point where everyone gets to start fresh. Again, sunlight usually produces better results and surely all of BO would prosper from this.

Teup

if it's going to take a week or more to ship, you shouldn't be selling.

I just don't understand this point. If a buyer is happy to wait a couple of extra days (what are we talking about anyway, shipping itself may take more than 4 weeks when unlucky), and he KNOWS this, why should that be a problem?

Precisely. Like I said because of the change 20 orders have not been placed in my store, 20 customers have not been made happy. We can try to apply all sorts of reasonings, but this is just a fact. If I'm looking for a rare part I would much rather have elaborate search results than a simple 0 parts found because some shops are forced closed.
As long as it is clear to the buyer, which it usually is, there are no problems. I definitely support the more info suggestions that have been made by the people above ^

I think the 6-14 days setting is a nice pro that BO has over BL, it would be a loss to see it removed, like it partially is now.

(Nobody was talking about hobby sellers by the way, selling is my source of income.)

pmitch

"Protecting the consumer" (e.g., government regulations on certain transactions or even BO's excluding 6-14 shops from search results) is valid ONLY IF there is no reasonable way to give the consumers data to allow an eyes-open decision. In this case, it seems that there is a way to give TRUE and Timely data. I appreciate the goal of keeping the buying process as simple as possible, BUT simplicity is not a virtue if it puts the consumer at a DISadvantage - that is, having only the seller's stated policy on service time rather than any objective data. If it is presented and explained carefully, this would be a BIG advance. For those who buyers who don't dig a little to understand (even the current system), maybe they don't care too much about this issue. BTW, from my painful experiences as both buyer and seller on BL, the BO buying experience is STILL much more straightforward and transparent - frankly, with or without any of these proposed changes.

robernat

@Teup
Just wondering, since your main source of income are these sites.
How much orders did you get in januari (BL & BO combined)
How many lot's
How many parts in total
Easy to check on BO, parts and number of lot's easy on BL as well (number of orders are online a bit more difficult, but in an Excell sheet it's quite easy).

Just wanna compare this to my own data, being a hobiest seller and having a full time job (so basicly I only have about 4 hours a day to take care of my orders).

I'm not asking for 'value' data (moneywise), that is not relevant

Hoddie

Like I said because of the change 20 orders have not been placed in my store, 20 customers have not been made happy. We can try to apply all sorts of reasonings, but this is just a fact.

Not really a fact. Those 20 customers may have placed orders in other stores. They may actually have ended up happier than they otherwise might have been because they got their Lego faster.

For what it's worth I'm not sure whether I agree with this change, but I do encourage the fact that BO is trying to put the customer front and centre.

Teup

@Teup
Just wondering, since your main source of income are these sites.
How much orders did you get in januari (BL & BO combined)
How many lot's
How many parts in total
Easy to check on BO, parts and number of lot's easy on BL as well (number of orders are online a bit more difficult, but in an Excell sheet it's quite easy).

Just wanna compare this to my own data, being a hobiest seller and having a full time job (so basicly I only have about 4 hours a day to take care of my orders).

I'm not asking for 'value' data (moneywise), that is not relevant

Getting a bit off topic, but anyway, I don't really think it's useful to compare entire "lifes" :P (there are waaaay too many factors) but for the lego selling part of it;

I have been (near) closed for 3 months because I had other obligations, but according to my statistics, a normal month for me is sort of like this:

Orders: 50 to 100
Lots: around 1500-2000
Parts: around 15000-20000

In januari, being near closed (closed on BL and 6-14 days shipping and high lot minimum on BO), I had 44 orders and 1688(238) parts.

I work as a visual artist and because of the crisis funding has stopped and we're supposed to get side jobs to sustain ourselves. I save up in quiet months, and close down the shop if I have too many obligations, appointments or projects on location. I would respect it if BO had the 6-14 days setting removed, then I would just close the shop in busy periods (like some have suggested and what is customary on Bricklink) but I just thought it was nice to not cut into the savings too hard in such months and still be able to make customers happy. I just think that is a nice extra to BO over BL.

I do encourage the fact that BO is trying to put the customer front and centre.

That is something I think nobody would disagree on