How come Sellers can not leave Negative/Neutral Feedback? (2)

BrickItOn

I would love to open this debate again, hopefully sticking to the subject this time (not blaming you for closing the first one).

So, why can we only praise the buyer? I had a buyer that bought (used, good) and expected (new) or at least (used, like new). Not a positive transaction for me. In my opinion I should be able to let other sellers know what they are dealing with. This goes for many things: Undeserved paypal chargebacks, not paying buyers, rude buyers.

Why are we not allowed to communicate this to other sellers?

Plastic-Paradise

I agree 100%. I don't feel it is a good set up.

PP

Stragus

Agreed. I would be curious to hear the arguments supporting the current system.

Loremonger

I'm curious. What action would you take if you got an order from a customer with poor feedback?

BrickItOn

To be honest, I was mostly still thinking like "the other site", as in: no automatic check out.

But as an example: Ship with insurance at my own expense if the buyer has a chargeback history.
But more important: That is the only way "bad" buyers can be identified to BO itself. Nice that a buyer has 3 positives, but there might be 100 neutral or negatives behind that, that simply could not be posted. So no arguments to ban a buyer.

Stragus

Exactly. Given that situation, I would ship with insurance at my own expense, as I would do for any buyer with low feedback placing a large order.

Hoddie

The feedback system you're proposing doesn't work. It can result in both sides hostaging their feedback to get a resolution in their favour. eBay realised this long ago, and while the alternative being used can incentivise a buyer to try it on, this is the cost of being in business. Every retailer suffers from problem buyers, allowing you to jump to conclusions and name and shame them publicly might open yourself and possibly Brickowl up to charges of libel.

The legitimate answers are (1) insurance and (2) factor bad sales into your pricing.

In my opinion the only improvement that needs to be made is allowing sellers to respond to feedback left by buyers.

Hoddie

I'll explain a little about the "jumping to conclusions" bit as this was challenged last time we had this debate. A low-feedback buyer contacts you to say they never received their order. The responsibility for ensuring the order arrives lays squarely with the seller, so you should either refund or re-send. However, you'd be tempted to assume that this guy's trying it on, so you leave negative feedback for them. This, assuming they genuinely didn't receive the order, means that other sellers (and possibly yourself too) have lost a buyer.

Royal Mail in the UK used to lose millions of items of mail (letters AND parcels) every year. Some are stolen by staff, others are delivered to wrong addresses, and others are genuinely lost down the back of post boxes and in sorting offices. It happens.

A "one strike and you're out" policy helps nobody. For every dodgy buyer there's a genuine buyer put off by a seller's unfair feedback. Does the marketplace really want to lose genuine customers?

The bottom line is that you can remove or mitigate the risks yourself by sending via insured and/or trackable shipping, and by raising your prices to factor in the occasional bad deal. Just like every other retailer.

Hoddie

Perhaps a half-way house might be to allow sellers who have previously had issues with a particular buyer the chance to leave a private note that can be viewed by other sellers who receive orders from them, subject perhaps to a time limit and oversight from Admin.

In some jurisdictions once you have taken cash you have formed a contract to supply the goods, so such notes might only be useful in so far as warning you to pay for insurance on the order.

iluvmyelement

I actually had one buyer use this against me knowing that I couldn't leave them negative feedback. I won't get into the details - but it was a case where I should have warned other sellers about the behavior. There is at least one buyer on here who knows how to play the game knowing that no bad can come of it. If negative feedbacks aren't allowed - then neutral comments or a way to respond to feedback given to me would be appropriate.

BrickItOn

That is a lot of text .

Some things:
"In my opinion the only improvement that needs to be made is allowing sellers to respond to feedback left by buyers." and "then neutral comments or a way to respond to feedback given to me would be appropriate."

My: Won't do the trick, because you won't find that response at the buyer's page, only at the shop in question.

"A "one strike and you're out" policy helps nobody"

My: Wo is talking about 1 stike?

"The bottom line is that you can remove or mitigate the risks yourself by sending via insured and/or trackable shipping, and by raising your prices"

My: I think that is unfair to honest buyers

Hoddie

A "one strike and you're out" policy is exactly what people are talking about. A low feedback buyer receives a negative feedback even though they've done nothing wrong - even if they chalk it up to experience and order something from another seller, chances are that seller will refuse to deal with them.

I'm not sure you could call it unfair on buyers to include the costs of doing business in your pricing. Yes they'll pay a little more, but should something go wrong then they're covered.

BrickItOn

First off all: Changes off recieving a negative feedback are real small, so the odds off a buyers first feedback to be a negative are next to zero. And should his first be a DESERVED negative, that is a great sign for all members.

Then: It is very hard to refuse a deal due to automatic checkout. I (and I think many sellers) would not refuse the deal, just maybe take extra precautions.

Then: You maybe don't mind paying a bit more, but most buyers do.

What is the point off buyers feedback in the current system anyway? Since it can only be positive, it is pretty useless. Yes, you can see that a buyer has had 10 transactions, but does that really mean anything?

Hoddie

If pricing in the market is distorted because some sellers aren't taking normal business precautions then that needs correcting. Either you factor insurance and/or the occasional bad buyer into your pricing or you choose to take the risk. I fail to see how being able to leave a negative feedback for someone solves this problem - you still have to swallow the loss, all you're doing is protecting other sellers. The down-side is that you may also be leaving negative feedback for someone who doesn't deserve it.

Seller's feedback currently does nothing more than you suggest, though I'd argue this is very helpful. I'd be much more confident dealing with someone who had 200+ feedback as opposed to someone with 1. If you remove the ability of sellers to leave feedback, this barometer would be lost.

BrickItOn

"all you're doing is protecting other sellers. The down-side is that you may also be leaving negative feedback for someone who doesn't deserve it."

Exactly the reason feedback excist in the first place. Let others know how the deal went.

"The down-side is that you may also be leaving negative feedback for someone who doesn't deserve it."

Why would I give somebody undeserved feedback? I loose a customer.

"I'd be much more confident dealing with someone who had 200+ feedback as opposed to someone with 1. "

Why?
You are doing the same thing but then backwards. I would also rather deal with a 200+ feedback member, but only if I know there are no 250 neutral or negatives transactions that are not shown.

I don't think we are going to agree on this, and that is perfectly fine . Curious about more opinions

Hoddie

I outlined above an example of undeserved feedback. You think sellers being able to leave negative feedback helps protect all sellers. It doesn't, it simply puts off buyers. A buyer should be able to leave honest feedback about sellers without fear of a getting a reciprocal negative.

BrickItOn

The best example is 1 post underneath this current topic: http://www.brickowl.com/forum#/discussion/1955/crash2009-has-opened-a-dispute-over-payment-anyone-else-just-had-this

I can't look at his feedback, but I am sure it is only positive

So if I didn't read the topic, I would never know he is a scammer, and I would treath his order like normal, loosing money and bricks.

Same situation on "the other site" would result in a negative feedback behind his name, so red flags are raised with sellers.

(of course changing his user name is a different story.)

pumbaugh

I thought chargeback/order not received info was available to the seller on the order details page. I had someone with an ONR listed quite a while ago, is this info no longer available to the seller on the Order Details Page? It was only available to see when they had an issue, so not sure if the feature is still in place or no longer in use. Seeing this info would give you the same info as bad feedback imo...
see someone with a ONR reported or Chargeback/paypal claim issued then you would take appropriate precautions as someone with a ding or two on their feedback profile. As with any site, problem orders should be reported to Admin to handle properly.

misbi

You would be able to see that there were problems from the ONR value in the Customer info panel at the bottom of your order page. Sellers should always file a report whenever a customer claims a refund for a missing order (rather than just refunding and moving on), so that any pattern will immediately show for all to see.

Hoddie

In response to Royroy - But that's what I'm talking about - first of all you need to factor bad customers into your pricing. But more than that you can mitigate risks if the stats given to you by Brick Owl determine that you might have a problem buyer on your hands. You can purchase insurance on a particular order if those stats worry you. And by stats I don't just mean previous feedback, but also the ones that show the number of times a buyer has reported issues or had issues reported about them.

The feedback system isn't perfect but it currently works for the buyer. If you open it up and allow sellers to leave negatives, it would make buyers less likely to leave honest feedback for a seller, and ultimately you end up with a system that nobody trusts. I'd much rather have a system that allows potential customers to spot the good sellers rather than a system that allows sellers spot a potential problem buyer.

Stragus

If the current system is in place to avoid retaliatory feedback, then I feel there are other solutions to that problem.

Here's one: we could keep one-way feedback hidden from view until the second party has also posted his feedback. After that point, the feedback becomes public and can't be changed, both the buyer and the seller discover what the other thought of the transaction (and can reply to any feedback). The feedback could also become public earlier in some circumstances (enough time has passed, chargeback was initiated, etc.).

No matter the solution, I think sellers need some way to warn each other about problematic buyers.

BrickItOn

My final words to this debate, I don't want to nag on about it. I am pretty happy with the system on "the other site", and have not made, recieved or noticed retaliatory feedback. If feedback is undeserved, talk about it with admin, and it will be removed. Over 2 years now without any problems.

Thor

I agree that sellers should be able to leave honest feedback for buyers, regardless of whether that feedback is good, bad or neutral. And I reject the arguments that just because a few sellers might leave inappropriate feedback then ALL sellers should not be allowed to leave feedback. I even more strongly reject the notion - as both a seller and buyer - that a seller should just increase their prices to cover the risk of bad buyers. I find it obscene that 99% of good buyers should pay more because of the actions of 1% bad buyers.

If I see that previous sellers have posted honest non-positive feedback for one of my buyers, I may influence how I handle and ship their order. I am not talking only about PayPal claims. I am also talking about difficult, demanding, impatient or rude customers who need a little extra attention and TLC. What I call "high maintenance people".

But I have a workaround - which I will post in another new thread.

Thor

Hoddie

You don't think that every other retailer sets their prices in the knowledge that some transactions will turn sour on them? It's a cost of being in business.

BL's feedback system is archaic. eBay and Amazon don't allow sellers to provide public negative feedback because they've realised long ago that it stunts their customer base which is bad for all sellers.

FreshStuds

One option is that feedback is private (part of, if not all) to BrickOwl who manage/police those with a relatively high number of negatives.

An indicator would be made public only IF the seller/buyer has a relatively high number of negatives in relation to their total positives. Otherwise it is hidden. As mentioned, the current system is in effect used to 'blackmail' buyers/sellers.

Thor

Yes, I realize other retailers set their prices higher than they normally would to account for bad buyers and transactions. I still don't like it though. And that does not mean those bad buyers should be hidden from others. Furthermore, if a tool exists to warn sellers and possibly weed out some of these bad buyers, sellers can reduce the number of bad transactions and costs they have to pass on to everyone else.

I disagree that BL's feedback system is archaic. I think it works just fine. Much better than the feedback systems here and on eBay.

Thor

Lawrence

A short answer to the question posted on the thread title would be that we have a Problem Reporting system which is essentially a systemised version of the function that negative feedback attempts to provide.

Problems with orders should be reported using the problem reporting tool, accessible from the "Other Actions" dropdown on an order. The data can be easily tracked by us for trends, and the aggregate information can be seen by other sellers.

Thor

There are problems and issues sellers may encounter with buyers that do not rise to the level of a problem that needs to be officially reported to the BO management. Problems that can make the transaction honestly less than positive or satisfactory to the seller. And problems other sellers may wish to know about.

Frankly speaking, I have to say that I am disappointed that BO feels it is "unprofessional" of sellers to post honest CONTENT in their feedback for buyers. If the content is honest, accurate and inoffensive, why does BO think it can control or discourage such content? If BO is going to control WHAT we write in our feedback for others, we might as well not bother leaving any feedback at all.

Thor

Lawrence

Would you be able to give some examples of situations where you would not report a problem using the problem reporting system, but would want other sellers to know about?

Thor

First, let me ask you what kinds of problems BO wants to be notified about, and the kinds of problems BO will actually do something about. That may give you some idea of the kinds of problems I am talking about. PayPal claims and claims for non-receipt I understand. And non-payment of orders.

Do you also want to know any time a buyer requests customs fraud? And will you actually do anything about it if we do? For example, will you warn the buyer? Do you want us to report buyers who become angry and rude because their collectible minifigures do not include the accessories (even though they were listed as minifigures only)? Do you want us to report buyers who are simply irrational, rude and unpleasant to deal with? Like a buyer who angrily claims you soaked their order in stale beer and threatens to file a PayPal claim and report you to RipoffReport.com? Buyers who email you 10 times in 3 days asking where is their order and getting more profane and threatening in the process? Buyers who call you a scammer (and worse) because they don't get their order the next day or because it is missing a penny part or two? Buyers who take forever to pay? Like the buyer who falsely claims their money order is in the mail 7 days after they place their order but doesn't mail it until you ask about it 14 days later? Does BO really want to know about any and all problems sellers may encounter with buyers?

Anyone who has been selling a few years will tell you that you will inevitably run across buyers who are just plain unpleasant to deal with. While they may not create the same level of problems that PayPal claims present, they still make some transactions non-positive for sellers. And I would hope BO would not prevent me from honestly posting accurate feedback summarizing my less than positive experience with such buyers. These buyers are, fortunately, few in number. But I see no reason why I should not let others know about them.

Thor

BrickItOn

Well put Thor.

In my current situation: I now have a neutral feedback (wich is already pretty harse with only 2 positives here) stating: "Quality not as I hoped".

I am sure potential customers read that as: Sells lousy bricks. After contacting the costumer about the problem, and explaining to him that Used good is not New, he admitted that I was right, and would buy from me again.

There is now way to respond to that feedback however, and there is no way a potential customer can see that I left an neutral stating "Overall smooth transaction, buyer expected (like) new bricks however".

I am sure this costs me customers, and there is nothing I can do about it. Or should we contact you for those things as well?

Hoddie

@Thor - do Asda Walmart file a negative feedback every time a customer is rude to a member of their staff? Why do you think every other buyer wants you to point at every bad customer out there? In some ways I agree that this is a small problem with the current system, but I don't think allowing sellers to leave negative feedback is the right answer.

@Royroy - if the buyer has acknowledged that his feedback is unfair I'm sure he can ask Admin to amend it.

Thor

Hoddie, I am not Walmart or Asda. Nor do I think anyone else here is a Walmart or Asda.

And *I* do NOT think "every other buyer wants (me) to point at every bad customer out there". That is just plain nonsense.

All I want is the ability to fairly and honestly rate my dealings with buyers, to let other sellers know of any potential problems, and for other sellers to also use feedback to let me also know about any potential problems.

Thor

Hoddie

You presume that all sellers are as honest and fair as you. Experience tells me otherwise.

TheBrickMill

@Royroy Slightly off topic but since your buyer seems to understand that he left erroneous feedback perhaps he would be willing to delete it if asked? I believe buyers have that option here (which is nice).

Thor

I make no such presumption. Nor do I see the logic in removing the ability of ALL sellers to leave honest feedback just because a very few might abuse it. Once again, we see that everyone suffers because of the feared actions of a few. If a few are going to cause problems, I say go after the few rather than taking something valuable away from everyone.

Thor

quigley

I imagine there are some here who may rather not see such hotly debated subjects in the BO Forum, but I see this as a good sign for the site. Activity is what BO needs, and it shows the site matters to people. I would chalk threads like this up to "growing pains".

Hoddie

You're happy to see customers put off from buying just because a bad seller jumped the gun and assumed a low-feedback buyer was trying it on when they said their order never arrived?

Thor

I am happy to see sellers honestly informed of potential problems and issues that can help them take necessary precautions to protect themselves and/or service their buyers better.

Hoddie

You'd have no idea whether feedback is honest or not if the system is open to hostaging as happened on eBay and still happens on BL. eBay and Amazon don't allow sellers to leave negative feedback because they've realised that it hampers the marketplace and limits the likelihood that buyers will leave honest feedback. You suggested above that you think BL's feedback system works, but personally I believe eBay and Amazon have far more experience than BL in this regard.

The system you propose would perhaps work better for sellers in some regards, and I understand the appeal of that given that you're a seller, but BO has a responsibility to the bigger picture and I hope they don't allow sellers to leave anything other than positive feedback. Providing there are other ways to deal with problem buyers, as currently, this is sufficient in my opinion.

Thor

I am not just a seller. I am also a very active buyer. I have no fear of feedback. Nor do I believe that the very few who may abuse it significantly impact business. In fact, the same argument can be said about buyers who abuse the feedback system and frustrated sellers who leave and go elsewhere. You're just replacing one exaggerated feared problem with another.

Thor

pumbaugh

I only wish for the option to reply to feedback given. I buy and sell on multiple sites. I can honestly appreciate the attempt at being different than some other marketplaces. I have had several bad instances on BL where I have had to temper(or simply omit) my feedback given out of fear of getting unwarranted negative feedback back. You can read some users feedback profiles and see it is common to return any neutral/negative with the same, based simply on the fact they were given a less than satisfactory score. This can often affect my feedback, not that I would say something not true, but I may choose to omit leaving feedback. The Owl's method attempts to deal with this on a buyer centric level. I could even understand not leaving feedback at all for buyers. I mean other than the warm and fuzzy number it does virtually nothing for me at the time of sale. The number of chargebacks/ONRs/not paid for is a better indicator imo than having to read through every persons feedback profile. Perhaps in the future a better problem report could be given, ie leave a note only if a problem report is filed and can be viewed by clicking the number in the order detail screens relating to the problem issue(ONR/CB/NP, etc.)

I kinda like the process on here honestly and can see the benefits, not for me a seller, but for buyers in general.

Hoddie

@Thor nope I'm not replacing one problem with another. Buyer is frustrated and leaves, that's possibly $100s worth of orders lost over the years. Seller is frustrated and leaves, that's great for the other sellers.

@pumbaugh - thanks for adding your input. I'm glad to see that I'm not the only person who thinks BO does this better. Not perfect but better. I agree that we need to be able to reply to feedback left on our own feedback profile.