Customer did NOT update PP mailing address... Is that really my problem ??

Brick Junkies

Customer did NOT update PP mailing address... Is that really my problem ??

Guys PP address was never updated when he moved, and the order went to his old address 2.5 miles away.
Is it my responsability to refund someone who does not have the correct mailing address on PP ??
I suggested he go to his old house and pick it up. So he decided to leave Neg feeback. Pshh !!

This doesn't seem right ?!?

My terms clearly state: ***We Ship to the buyers Confirmed PayPal address ONLY for Tracking and Insurance reasons !!!!***

Bricks-Shop

Hey,
we have also this case from time to time that the addresses are not updated. Actually we had a case with the page with the 4 colored letters that a customer has changed his address, but on another secret second place was also his old address.

It's pity that they have left directly negative feedback. We try to get in contact with our customers to clarify what went wrong. Depending on the value of the order we ship it again on our cost or we let the customer again for the shipment.

But, leaving negative without communication is not fair play.

Regards,
Oliver.

Hoddie

You can't impose your own terms on BrickOwl, you're supposed to follow the site's global terms, which state you should only ship to the shipping address. This is incompatible with PayPal's Seller Protection but the onus is on the seller to - if they want to - check with the buyer if two different addresses are shown.

Mrs Swoop

Yes, it's your problem. You knew it was going to be a problem when you chose to ignore the customer's shipping address instead of trying to resolve the situation before shipping. And being rude to the customer is not going to help.

Brick Junkies

How can BrickOwl directly contradict the rules spelled out by PayPal to ONLY ship to the verified address on file ?? If you don't then you have ZERO seller protection through PayPal regardless of the the customer or BrickOwl tell you to do.

This seems more like BrickOwl/PayPal conflict now??

Hoddie

It is a conflict but one which you must live with. BrickOwl can't be expected to accommodate the terms imposed on its users by every third party involved in the process, including delivery companies and payment providers, not least because such terms vary depending on where users live, and change often enough to make such a proposal unworkable.

BrickOwl can help mitigate the risks - and they did make a change recently which impacted this very issue for non-US users - but apparently there's no similar easy fix for US-based users.

Consider it a lesson learned - in future if addresses don't match you can check with the buyer to see if it's a mistake. You could even cancel the order and ask the buyer to amend their PayPal address before placing it again (though don't cancel too many or you might be placed on the proverbial naughty step).

PayPal's seller protection is a nice thing to have, but how often is it actually needed? I've never once had to make use of it in nearly 25 years of eBay or BL/BO trading (if it's even existed all that time).

I do agree with Mrs Swoop though - there's no reason to be rude to a user who has provided a shipping address which you ignored. This kind of reaction impacts the marketplace as a whole. I get that it sucks for you but the buyer here didn't do anything wrong. They placed an order, provided a shipping address, and made payment. They fulfilled their side of the contract.

Brick Junkies

"by every third party involved in the process"
Aside from PayPal and Stripe, who else is there ??  I would expect PP to be in the middle of 75%+ of all BO transactions. You would think that BO would align their policies with the world's largest online payment system that they themselves use primarily for transactions ?!?

After talking to PP claims dept, they said I did the correct thing by shipping to the verified address on file. Shipping to ANY OTHER ADDRESS would leave you open to a dispute just like this. They were surprised that BO contricts what they tell you to do, as BO does not handle the actual claims.

I will let you know what PP decides in the end either way.

This has nothing to do with the $$..  This is 100% about holding people responsible for their actions/mistakes. If I don't update my address, and I don't get my power bills... Is it the power company's fault when it gets turned off?? So why should I be expected to take a loss when all he has to do is drive the 2.5 miles to his old house, and ask for his package that he 100% KNOWS is sitting there waiting for him.

Hoddie

Of course PayPal are going to say that you did the right thing - you followed their recommendations.

BrickOwl needs to work for many different payment methods, I have half a dozen myself, so restricting the process to PayPal's rigid requirements is simply not possible. Even if BrickOwl tried to do so, PayPal has different terms in different countries. It is not reasonable to expect BrickOwl to proactively review the continually changing terms of all third parties that its users involve in their sales.

Your buyer's mistake was with their PayPal account, not with their BrickOwl order. They gave you the correct address but you're disputing that because you sent to the billing address instead of the shipping address.

CodeSoka

I say that since you specifically state that "We Ship to the buyers Confirmed PayPal address ONLY for Tracking and Insurance reasons !!!!", it is not your fault. You should point this out to the buyer and tell him that it is not your fault, and that he should resolve it himself. You should make sure that you aren't rude about it though, otherwise it might not turn out well.

CodeSoka

I also think that for future orders, you should contact any buyers that have their shipping address different from their Pay-Pal address.

Hoddie

@Tappbrick - BrickOwl does NOT allow sellers to impose their own terms and conditions. Regardless, even if they did, it's unlikely they would allow a seller to over-ride one of the site's global terms (sellers must ship to the shipping address provided on BO) with one of their own.

Calibrick

As usual, Hoddie speaks my mind for me very, very well... when I first started my store, I saw BO terms were in conflict with PP seller protections. My solution? When the two addresses are in conflict, I reach out to the buyer to validate the address (I think Mrs Swoop also recommended this, another like-minded soul of mine). It's only been an issue a couple of times.

When they do not match and BO is correct, since the order is already placed (regardless of if they chg their PP address at that point or not), I have to make a business decision to proceed w/o PP protections. I always decide to move forward - only once I was a bit concerned due to the value and they buyer's limited feedback, so I insured it myself - no big for a $100 order (worth the piece of mind) when you use InsurePost (it's quite cheap). :-)

Brick Junkies

With over 4500 orders in the last year and a half, any mis-matched addresses usually are delt with before shipping... In this case it was hardly a noticable change of address... just the street changed, so it was missed on our end, or I would have contacted them 1st. Regardless, the guy knows exactly here his package is... sitting at his old address right down the street. Here was the Original (email not sent through BO) and my reply. Keep in mind, it was delivered 2 days before he emailed me. I wasn't being rude at all... Just giving him the best advice I can from 1500 miles away. I have no way to contact the person living in his old house to get it back...

Email:
My order was sent to the wrong address. I double checked my order form and PayPal account and saw the incorrect address was on neither. I don't know how my old address was used. I sent emails with no response. Please advise.

REPLY:
There's not much I can do from here. I would suggest you drive over to the old address and ask them for your package. On Google it looks to only be about 2.5 miles away. Aside from the email you just sent today (below)... we have not received any other emails from you about this order.
You seriously need to update and verify your new primary Ship To address in PayPal, as most sellers ONLY ship to the authorized PayPal shipping addrss which is very clearly spelled out in our Terms for Tracking and Insurance purposes.
Sorry, but I'm sure what else I can do from 1500 miles away.
Let me know what the people at your old address say.

Brick Junkies

Item not received - claim CASE CLOSED
Case ID: PP-D-11246****

May 11, 2021
The case was closed in your favor.

Note: item shows delivered to correct address

Mrs Swoop

The only relevant question is - Did you ship it to the shipping address? If you didn't you've broken BO's terms of service which you accepted when you set up your store.

Hoddie

Your buyer's mistake at PayPal covered your mistake at BrickOwl. I wouldn't be too proud of that, you've probably cost the marketplace a buyer, and that impacts on all of us sellers.

You should know that even though PayPal decided in your favour, from a legal standpoint, you have broken your contract with the buyer and they have every right to report you to the BBB or seek legal remedy.

Mrs Swoop

@Hoddie is right, this will have a negative impact on Brick Owl and on all of us sellers. In light of which I would like to see Brick Owl get involved even if the customer doesn't report the issue. (and I realise that may not be made public)

Bricks_nw_uk

If we have a conflict addresses then a simple message to the buyer would resolve it. I have one this quite a few times on BL.

However I don’t really see why a seller doesn’t just ship to the Shipping Address on the order we receive?

I agree this reflect on everyone and how we treat the customer is really important to the success of Brick Owl and the community

P6tu

I'd give a word from my my side as a buyer that it is very easy to have multiple addresses in PayPal and it is very easy to choose a correct one. And with every purchase PP always displays the address and I have to confirm that it is the corrwct address. I don't understand the problem from the buyers side that why he/she didn't select the correct address. BO has him/her covered at the moment, but I would personally stand by the seller...

Hoddie

@P6tu - PayPal does not allow all users to have multiple address. That facility has been removed in many countries, and in others you need to be a confirmed user.

Besides, the user could have added their address on PayPal 10 years ago or more. They added it to the BO order on the date the order was placed. If they don't match, which is likely to be correct?

I accept that from a seller's point of view, they lose Seller Protection if they don't ship to the PayPal address, but it's not reasonable to send it there if it doesn't match the address on BrickOwl - at the very least a seller should check, and if they're still not comfortable, cancel the order.

Papa Pearson

I got my first order like this last night. Brick Owl and PayPal shipping address don't match. I messaged the buyer, but haven't heard from them yet. This happens to be an order that was redirected by Rebrickable. What am I supposed to do if the buyer asks me to ship to the Brick Owl address and not the PayPal? I lose all of my seller protection from PayPal if I do that. PayPal handles the money. I am going to go with their terms before Brick Owl's.

Hoddie

If you can't abide by BrickOwl's terms, why are you here?

beaverbrick

Directly from Brick Owl's terms...

Terms and Conditions
General
By creating an account on Brick Owl you agree to the below terms and conditions. These conditions may change at any time.
...
Stores
Orders must be shipped to the shipping address on the order unless otherwise agreed with the customer.

So all seller's have agreed to send to the shipping address.

Papa Pearson

@ Hoodie...is Brick Owl going to compensate me should this buyer try to scam me? I think not...

Hoddie

You chose to come here and agreed to follow the site's rules. Bear in mind that the buyer can leave you negative feedback and you cannot return the favour.

Calibrick

@Papa Pearson, we all run into this. :-) For my part, if it's a low value order, I just go ahead and ship and not worry about it (once I get a confirmation that it's the right address from the buyer). If I don't hear back, I generally go ahead and take that same chance - especially if its a buyer with good feedback. If its a new buyer and a higher value order, after address confirmation I may self-insure it (InsurePost is VERY cheap, and you can write it off your taxes just like your shipping costs). So there are options you can consider. :-) Good luck!

Papa Pearson

@Calibrick Its a pretty new buyer. 7 feedback I think over the last month or so. I do not believe this is someone trying to scam me. Just a mistake. And I don't really mind not shipping to the PayPal address should it not be correct. Its not a high value order, $13 with shipping. But what I was trying to figure out was what was actually the correct thing to do. I know Brick Owl has their terms, but so does PayPal. Who's terms do I follow?

Hoddie

You have a contract with BrickOwl to follow their terms.

You are not required to follow the terms that enable you to qualify for PayPal's Seller Protection policy. It is optional.

End of the day, as I said above, the PayPal address could be years out of date. Why would you knowingly send an order to an address that's probably not correct? It's just inviting a negative rating. Sure, PayPal's Seller Protection might mean you don't lose out on that one order, but a negative can lose you dozens of sales.

Calibrick

Papa, I agree with Hoddie, if it helps at all... But you've done the right thing by reaching out to the customer, which they'll appreciate. :-) The trick is if you don't hear back (which I've run across). Those are when I take chances and hope for the best (worst case, it becomes a tax writeoff).

bricksinbins

Geez people... some of you need to come down from your almighty high horses. BO could very well require that shipping address matches the buyers PayPal address. That would solve this problem. BO need every seller it can get so no need to make things more difficult than they need to be. Forcing a seller to give up PP seller protection is just asinine.

Hoddie

Asinine? To rely on PayPal's Seller Protection policy to ensure your profit margin is asinine. A genuine scammer would get their money back from PayPal 95% of the time, regardless where it was sent, whether it was tracked and/or insured.

It's not about high horses, it's about not celebrating a BO seller ripping off a BO buyer, something which affects us all. Both parties made a mistake in this transaction yet only the buyer is made to pay for it. That's hardly fair.

If you want the wild west where you can impose whatever rules you like, skip over to BL and do just that. But don't try and make BO a carbon copy of BL because being different is what's made this place work so well.

bricksinbins

You are really missing the point.

Mrs Swoop

The point is that it's about the actual situation now, not how you would like it to be. It doesn't matter what words you use to describe it, all of us sellers have agreed to the BO terms, so thinking that you can just ignore the bits that don't suit you as and when you see fit is just wrong. Just the view from my really high horse.

Hoddie

I'm not missing the point at all. As I believe I said in my second reply, this issue of ensuring the shipping address matches the PayPal address isn't one that BrickOwl can solve for US addresses (it already is like this for non-US addresses). So your point was answered already.

Calibrick

I look at it this way: This is the site owner's world, and we get to play in it by paying the lowest fee around I know of (receiving the best service in return I've ever seen). So maybe all rules aren't optimal from my personal worldview - but the owner has to take an international point of view for themselves and for the variety of sellers across the world. I've always assumed there are good legal reasons for this and just dealt with it. :-)

With that worldview, there are no problems - just solutions to be decided upon at each store's individual level, as we each make business decisions that are in our personal best interests each day (it's why we're here, no?).

I think this thread started with a request for advice - advise was given. That doesn't mean at all that we all need to agree with each other, it's all good. :-)

Colorado Bricks

For me the most annoying thing about BO and PP shipping address not matching is that BO calculate S&H based on the Shipping address, for large packages it can be twice as expensive to ship it to another part of the country.

Graham

@Brick Junkies

This comes up over and over
... and could be solved simply by the same method used on BrickLink and many other websites thru the integration. I have a buyer over there who drop ships mini figures 50 orders all to different names/addresses the shipping address always matches BL and PayPal.

So far ALL but one order where the shipping address on BO is different the customer has entered the incorrect address (usually zip code) on BO. So if I followed "the rule" customer would not get their order and they would be refunded by PayPal. Will BrickOwl cover my loss for when I followed their rule? NO.
So I ONLY ship to the address provided by PayPal, unless by prior agreement.

BrickOwl needs to sort this out, its so simple.

Hoddie

This is a ridiculous argument.

You are using BrickOwl to sell, ergo you must follow BrickOwl's rules, which clearly state you should ship to the shipping address.

PayPal's Seller Protection is an optional service which you opt-in to by sending the order to the address given by PayPal, using a service that provides tracking.

If those addresses don't match and you'd really rather keep PayPal's largely worthless Seller Protection, you can either:

(1) Check in with the customer to find out what's going on,
(2) Send to the address given by PayPal, hoping it's the one the customer intended to use, and that it won't result in a negative feedback rating here on BrickOwl that you can't do anything about, and/or a case being lodged with the Better Business Bureau or other consumer protection authority, and/or a court case for breach of contract (your contract with the buyer, not your contract with PayPal).

Why anyone would pick (2) is, frankly, beyond me.

But I do agree that - if possible - BrickOwl could perhaps handle this better. Admin has said it's not something that can be solved via integration with PayPal for US-based buyers, but perhaps it's possible to do it another way - maybe asking how the buyer wishes to pay before asking for a shipping address (and skipping that entirely if the buyer selects PayPal).

Until and unless that happens, I honestly believe that where a seller wins a PayPal claim because they sent to the PayPal address rather than the shipping address, that seller should be kicked off BrickOwl. You're in breach of the site's terms and you've probably cost the site a buyer who could have otherwise gone on to become a customer of many other sellers. All for the want of a momentary check and a quick message.